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  1. 5 points
    jtimon

    The end of the foundation

    > So what is your vision for the coin moving forward Developers? My priority regarding Freicoin is starting to do rebases much faster and continuously, getting all the new improvements, bugfixes and features. As for new consensus changes features, apart from those included in more modern versions of bitcoin (cltv[bip65], csv[bip68/bip112], segwit[bip141]), it would be nice to get features from https://elementsproject.org/ which now also rebases periodically. Specially I would like to have confidential transactions https://elementsproject.org/elements/confidential-transactions/ and confidential assets: https://elementsproject.org/elements/asset-issuance/ This is similar to freimarkets' basic asset issuance but with much better privacy. But that requires a hardfork, so it strongly depends on support from the community. There's also some incentive problems with the utxo, but I think we can solve them. In general, that's my basic plan for Freicoin development: rebase and get new features from elements and bitcoin. I'm also working on a block explorer for bitcoin, elements and liquid that I would like to adapt to freicoin as well. But of course other people can work on other things. In any case, this is rather orthogonal to the foundation's funds. So please, let's try to stay on topic. New developments, new webs and potential consensus changes are all fine to discuss, but I don't think they are directly related to the question at hand, which is admitting we have failed as a community (and as devs) with the foundation and non-mining distribution, put an end to it and move on to other things.
  2. 4 points
    Skaro

    The end of the foundation

    Well, that's as official as things get here. We got a majority of 'Yays' agreeing that Option 4 represents the communities choice for ending the foundation. So its done, decided. LET'S DO THIS!
  3. 4 points
    Rik8119

    Stuck!

    Hi again, since my commet is off topic for the other threads it fits most in here. Thanks to @fedde 's exchange, the fresh ideas from @Skaro , @Adilado and @jtimon i am now again looking at freicoin with confidence. I am really exited to see the "freiexchange 2.0" in action and think that we will find a way to adopt Freicoin to the new situation to make up a worldwide freiconomy without debt and dangerous bubbles, because that was what we are here for since 2013. I am now fully in FRC again and given up the positions in all other coins feeling good with it. I hope our ( @Bicknellski , @Arcurus ) call for do or die was the wake up call we needed. Thanks Rik. BTW i am fully standing behind a HF if we need it to bring new needed features to Freicoin.
  4. 3 points
    Rik8119

    New website for Solidar

    Hi there, @Adilado has already pointed out that a cool website is very useful to promote a coin, so i am looking for someone who can help me to find a good theme and set up the site the Site Solidar.it is under construction atm but i wanna make it look great again ;-). Maybe someone has some idea or links?
  5. 3 points
    Mark Friedenbach

    The end of the foundation

    Wow, what a thread! Jorge told me of his intention to post this, and I told him that although I had some feedback to give he should post anyway and I will provide my own thoughts as a comment. Now that I've wrapped up being a block chain trainer at the BC-2 workshop in Japan, I actually have time to do so. First, I'm very thankful to see that most of the community are of the same mind regarding this issue (also, hi galambo!). The foundation was created for the purpose of solving a problem we perceived with the two competing requirements of the distribution mechanism: we wanted it to be fast so that the monetary base stabilized quickly and we could test Gesell's theory of money, but we also wanted to avoid plausible allegations of pre-mining. Sadly we must recognize that we accomplished neither -- the inflation rate of freicoin is unclear so long as the future of the foundation funds is undetermined, and the "foundation" has been misconstrued by many to resemble other foundations with more centralized purposes. Really all we did was punt the issue. We hoped that we could come up with another fair, decentralized mechanism for distribution of the foundation funds. In reality that task proved nearly impossible, and certainly not doable with the manpower available. Republicoin remains on the drawing board as we were unable to come up with a suitably decentralized version that didn't compromise privacy and fungibility goals, let alone implement any of the half-working solutions. The charity matching program is technically still live but hasn't been operational as the backend suffers some major exploitable flaws. So reason number 1 to kill the foundation is that it seems we are unable to meet the technical goals for distribution, and arguably we should all prefer to see those funds destroyed in a publicly verifiable way rather than compromise on those ideals and do something that could be construed as an actual pre-mine. The second reason is regulatory. Coin Center released in 2016 a good legal brief for deciding whether a cryptocurrency offering should be considered a security or not, which has grave regulatory implications. You can read the report here: https://coincenter.org/entry/is-bitcoin-a-security https://coincenter.org/entry/framework-for-securities-regulation-of-cryptocurrencies That's how people in bitcoin space were hoping the issue would be handled. Just a few weeks ago any uncertainty about what regulators are thinking was cleared up when the SEC announced that they would use basically the same rules for deciding whether a crypto token is an unlicensed security offering. Notably they say that the DAO was a security, and presumably so was most if not all of the ICOs. You can read that report here: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131 What would it mean if the SEC decided that freicoin was a securities offering? Well, in the frightening worst case it could mean that those responsible for creating the currency (gulp, me and a few others) could be forced to pay exorbitant fines AND go to federal prison for decades of our lives, as well as prevent us from ever working in the financial industry ever again. Conceivably it might not even matter if those involved are US persons given the way the US uses extradition treaties to enforce its laws around the globe. So please, let's take this seriously. (In case I frightened anyone too much, note that the SEC decided not to take action on the DAO, presumably because the regulatory situation was not clear at the time it was created. Now there's no excuse. The legal advice I received is that as long as we take proactive action to to make maximally sure we're in complicance, we should be okay. So as long as we take the actions I mention here, I'm still in this for the long run ) The gold standard for whether an offering is a security is the Howey test. Quoting the Coin Center page: "An investment contract for purposes of the Securities Act means a contract, transaction or scheme whereby a person . . . invests his money in a common enterprise and is led to expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party Invests his money? Well people can buy freicoin on exchanges, does that count? Unclear. Certainly it would be bad if the Foundation (a kinda-sortof pre-mine) sold its coins to investors. If this were a regular proof-of-work mined only currency the answer would be no, but honestly the existence of the foundation complicates this in hard to determine ways. Whether freicoin meets this test is really up to the prejudices of the SEC, which I have no insight into. So let's assume yes, but things would be much better if the foundation ceased to exist and the coins it managed were destroyed (this precludes, for example, directly giving out the coins to existing holders). A common enterprise? We're all here for demurrage money, right? Check. Expects profits? Let's be honest, everyone expects the freicoin price to rise if/when it sees significant usage. I would like to say that as demurrage money the freicoin price will be stable and only used as a medium of exchange. But while that might happen in the future, we are not there yet. Someone investing in freicoin today is probably expecting a return, not actually using it themselves (yet). Finally, expects those profits to come solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party. Here again the foundation rears its ugly head. I'm happy to say that since freicoin was created we ALWAYS had an idea of the foundation only being involved in the initial issuance and then disbanding, and not doing anything else. The foundation doesn't even pay for the official freicoin website -- I pay out of pocket for those negligible hosting costs. However the SEC will be judging not based on what the foundation does but what a reasonable investor might think they do. And I'm sorry to say there's a lot of misinformation out there. Would a reasonable investor think that the Freicoin Foundation is like, say, the Litecoin Foundation or Ethereum Foundation, both of which pay for both development work and promotion of the coin itself? I don't know.. and that worries me. Both points (1) and (4) would be made SIGNIFICANTLY clearer if the foundation was unequivocally disbanded, and the funds it controls destroyed. I think there are some concessions that can be reasonably made. Namely we promised 1:1 matching of charitable contributions, which we haven't delivered on. In fact, those donations are still sitting on keys controlled by the foundation. We can forward those funds and do a retroactive 1:1 matching, before destroying the rest of the coins. The foundation has a few non-charitable causes listed on it. We'll have to figure out what to do with those. The original donations can obviously be forwarded, but I'm not sure we can reasonably match the contribution. We'll also have to figure out what we do with donations to the foundation itself -- both foundation and the freimarkets bounty fund. I think we CAN'T do anything like distribute the coins to current holders. Destroying the coins is the same economically anyway, and much clearer intent in the eyes of regulators. Finally, my own vote is for option number 1 (sorry!), but with a twist. I will separately be making some posts on this forum about my intention to release an elements-derived sidechain to freicoin that is proof-of-work mined (Rik, this addresses your comment from page 2, but is off topic for this thread). It is possible that we could, for example, allow pegs into this sidechain to be doubled in quantity 2:1 so that up to 50M freicoins can be moved from the old chain to the new chain, resulting in 100M on the other side. The new chain would also have its own subsidy so, if all goes well, there is a period of coexistence where both chains are used, until the peg pool is exhausted and the old chain is archived. We can quibble the details, but something LIKE this would allow us to maintain 100M total freicoins and achieve full issuance more quickly without the complications of a miner-incentive-reducing soft-fork. In any case, the option 4 is just option 1 followed by a soft-fork. So can we at least say that we are in agreement to finish the donation matching, destroy the funds, then start a conversation about the best way to handle the mis-match between subsidy, demurrage, and the total monetary base? Even if you guys want to go with the soft-fork, which I respect, the coins can be destroyed first whereas the soft-fork requries some development and testing.
  6. 3 points
    Bicknellski

    The end of the foundation

    YAY! Yes on option #4,
  7. 3 points
    fedde

    The end of the foundation

    Damn... tought i had double vote 😂
  8. 3 points
    Bicknellski

    The end of the foundation

    A plan moving forward please. Seems we have agreed to some things. And again somethings like POS vs POW have already been discussed before Arc and I would defer to what Mark and Jorge have said on this issue we don't need POS. As for freimarkets colored coins etc... what are the developers willing to do? I think 1 and 4 seem agreeable to most. Let's see that done and maybe we can see a more concrete plan moving forward. If everything now is going to be run through the forum and discussed great. But what is the agenda? What do we need etc. The foundation question seems mostly solved. Someone write it up and lets vote and then move forward. Note: Fab. Well I have said my piece and it needed to be voiced. As for attendance and the community? Really? A lot of those past options and plans were debated within a larger community and assumed that would be acted on. If we want to keep discussing things already discussed and posted then in reality it is a waste of time and it is a delaying tactic at best. I am not asking for anything other than following up on what the devs want to do with their established plans and they were discussed at length in the past I don't see how things have change demonstrably since 2014 or 2015. I am not asking for the devs to make this their job and put in 40 hours a week and cut everyone out of the process. I just want them to engage with us in a reasonable way so we can expect some sort of progress. Have a look at the old forum you will see what I mean on that. It would be worthwhile for those two to put their vision on paper and get us the community to sell that with our input. But you can't keep limping along with no one leading this thing. Someone needs to step up and moving things forward.
  9. 3 points
    Adilado

    Stuck!

    Hooray!
  10. 3 points
    Adilado

    The end of the foundation

    Of the proposed options i say 1 or 4. The coins should be destroyed, and that it takes time to reach 100 mil is good. To be honest i think 100 mil is too much either way and its not a good number. 28 or close to is much better and closer to Bitcoin. But it has to work for the miners too.
  11. 3 points
    Skaro

    The end of the foundation

    @Rik8119well actually that was as far as I got. I wasn't sure what kind of effort @jtimon was wanting to make. So I'm not sure how complex the idea could/should be. But it seemed that a new wallet with POS/POW split could distribute the Foundation funds. The demurrage is still a good idea and may be more attractive now with countries legalizing crypto-currencies.With a wallet at 0.14, Freicoin becomes modern and it could literally be a relaunch with The Foundation funds for redistribution. We could even have an ico (or I guess it would be a co)... ;-)
  12. 3 points
    Fabrizio

    The end of the foundation

    Maybe kick the can down the road a bit, if its possible? Move the Foundation coins to a time locked contract, spendable after certain day and/or require softfork? If not moved within certain amount of days/blocks -> destroy/redistribute/whatever. Theres some neat technologies being built and getting realeases in the not-so-far-distant future, so could be useful to have the foundation coins for some use cases which might come available later. From what I understand, sidechains / drivechains will bring a lot of new possibilities for distribution mechanisms and other logics
  13. 3 points
    Rik8119

    The end of the foundation

    Well if we want to compare it to Bitcoin - which does not make sense IMHO - i ask myself what the community would say if the core devs would decide to increase the coin supply by 5? I can not imaginge atm that a social purpose can be decentralized. BItcoin f.e. is not decentralized either. 1m is owned by Satoshi and there are a handful pool and a few groups of devs ruling the bord. Woergl f.e. was the most successful freigeld currency and they used it to pay for social infrastructure. And IMHO it is the only reasonable purpose to redistribute money to the poor. I dont really see how it is fair to those that invest in FRC in the past dont follow the forum and one day wake up with an extreme amount of FRC pumped in mining - what in the end will lower the price and interest in the coin.
  14. 3 points
    galambo

    The end of the foundation

    I vote option 1. I will share what I am thinking: I was never very comfortable with the idea of the foundation, because to me the idea of Bitcoin is using clever mathematics to avoid politics. A foundation picking winners and losers is the definition of politics, and I wasn't comfortable with being in that position. There was some thought to use the foundation coin to come up with a provably fair way to distribute the foundation coins with a "faucet". But in my opinion this would take a level of mathematical innovation on the level of Bitcoin itself, and we are very unlikely to solve this problem if it is even possible. Distributing the coin to miners is provably fair, but this is a political decision to reward the miners. Is there any indiciation that Freicoin needs a higher level of security which we would be buying with rewarding the miners at a higher rate? Anyways, please consider opinion from someone who was involved in the release of this coin but not so much now, I apologize for that.
  15. 2 points
    Rik8119

    Coin supply

    For more transparency here a short overview what the supply of Solidar was and what it is now: Initial distribution phase (Blocks 1- 25k): 20 000 000 Solidar mined. 19 800 000 association coins for UBI/Basicincome and 200 000 Coins for miners. Mining rewards reward till Block 86000 1% = ~0.73 coins / Block. Mining reward now: 0.1% = ~0.073 SLR. That means during the next ~10 years coins available through mining will decrease from 200 000 to 20 000 coins. Coins that were distributed by basic income were only a few hundred by now, so negligible. All bounties were payed from my personal wallet. Main supply is coming from mining atm but of course i hope this will change, so we increased the monthly payout to 10 SLR/capita. But atm there are only a handful recipients. Many greetings Rik
  16. 2 points
    Rik8119

    Need.. more.. FRC..

    i was thinking of something like this (sort of with a kria).. Kria to the moon!
  17. 2 points
    Bicknellski

    Future of Freicoin

    Gobsmacked. You really buried the lead for the most interesting possible updates. This is most interesting aspect of what you are planning for FRC. If you can help crack that and get FRC in that arena and at the forefront maybe there is hope for wider adoption. Personally when I first came to bitcoin it was a huge liability I saw where those with technical skills, resources, lower power costs would eventually 'control the coin'. Centralized mining in the hands of only a few corporations or organizations and a lot fraud has happened as a direct result of this race to centralization. Everyone has a phone. Everyone. I always hoped to see something where POW mining was on every hand-phone on the planet and it was not a massive warehouse requiring coal fired plants being fired up in Inner Mongolia securing the network. I will be following that thread closely and I hope there is a potential to bring mining back to the small scale really individuals rather than a collective entity with massive resources. I will read up on the link you posted.
  18. 2 points
    Mark Friedenbach

    Future of Freicoin

    No solution, I'm afraid. Anyone can fork bitcoin, or freicoin, or any other crypto currency at any time and try to get people to use the new spinoff coin over the old one. This isn't the first time that it has happened to bitcoin either, just the first time that it had any significant (albeit minority) support from miners, users, developers, etc. There is not some crypto magic that would save us from this outcome -- I can think of generic approaches to replay prevention that would work no matter the underlying crypto system (e.g. XOR the signature with fixed data).
  19. 2 points
    Mark Friedenbach

    Won't confirm

    Difference of 2 satoshi/kria, actually. Lightning struck twice. The wallet does not let you spend more than you have. This is not a bug or mistake. What happened was that about a year and a half ago we rolled out a soft-fork upgrade of the Freicoin network which changed the rules regarding how demurrage is calculated. Specifically it made it so that demurrage is truncated (rounded down) per-input instead of in aggregate over all transactions. Imagine a transaction that, after demurrage is calculated, results in 2 inputs that have 0.8 and 0.8 fractional kria each. Under the old rules these are represented as arbitrary-precision rational numbers that sum to 1.6 kria, which is then truncated to 1. Under the new rules, they are each truncated to zero before being summed as integers. 0 + 0 = 0. While the old method was probably ideal in some mathematical sense, it required that every single piece of the freicoin code that worked with transaction values had to be modified to use arbitrary precision arithmetic. It was a huge drag on developer resources as patches many thousands of lines long had to be maintained and updated for each release. Indeed this minor technicality was one of the two main reasons we fell behind in maintaining the freicoin releases for each upstream bitcoin version (the other being lack of testing). The new method, on the other hand, confines the complex mathematics to a single 10-line function in a single file and only a few other points need to be updated to call that function. Much easier to maintain and well worth switching to. However that does mean that if you create a zero-fee transaction using an old client (v0.8.3 or earlier), there is a small chance that you will trip this bug and claim one or two extra kria that you are not allowed under the new rules, thereby making your transaction invalid to any upgraded client. This was deemed to be an acceptably small risk for both theoretical and practical reasons. The theory is that it required paying zero fees, which is not the default even with nearly empty blocks, and even then had a low probability of happening. And pragmatically, we observed that in the 3 years or so that Freicoin had been in existence and in use, such a transaction had never, ever been made: the new-rules clients were able to successfully sync the whole chain without any exceptions being made. Finally, even if it did happen, that would not by itself lead to loss of funds -- the transaction would simply not confirm. Unconfirmed transactions is a fact of life in the greater bitcoin world and there are tools for dealing with them. Either make your wallet forget the transaction, upgrade, and sign again; or re-create it using the raw transaction API and manually adjust the amounts. Those are the two approaches I would take. Mark. Murphy is a heartless bastard that enjoys picking on our friend Jert. Twice.
  20. 2 points
    Mark Friedenbach

    Future of Freicoin

    It's time to re-start this thread. As mentioned in another thread, I've been professionally busy non-stop for some months on a couple of different projects. That is currently slated to change with my new responsibilities including the maintenance of the Elements codebase, which includes most of the new features we would like to add to Freicoin. So there's a little bit of double-dipping there. Plus since I'll be traveling less and working normal hours I'll be able to spend 8-10 hours a week, evenings and weekends, working on the basic plan outlined at the top of this thread. So let's revisit this thread. We did back-port some consensus bug fixes to the freicoin client and issued a new release of the 0.8 node software in 2015. Also included in that release was a soft-fork that changed the rules for demurrage calculation, in a way that will potentially make the client easier to maintain. We have not made good on our promise to update the client to newer versions of upstream Bitcoin Core, and that will be my first priority. The soft-fork change to demurrage calculations means that a little bit of up-front work is required to re-write those patches, but afterwards the total maintenance cost should be reduced. The call for testers still stands. We need to develop some sort of test plan for new releases that gives us some assurance we aren't releasing bad code. Any help with this would be much appreciated. Now looking at the specific features I suggested adding: This is already in bitcoin, and will be in freicoin as soon as we upgrade the reference client to a more recent upstream version. Likewise! Freicoin will get the same segwit that bitcoin is about to lock-in. Still want this for Freicoin, but: In the time since I wrote this, Jorge and I along with our co-workers and a partner company implemented confidential assets, which is an extension of confidential transactions that blinds the asset being transacted as well as the amount. This was a significant amount of work, and basically occupied 12-14 months of my professional career, as well as that of my colleagues. Part of why my enthusiasm for bringing CT to Freicoin waned after writing the above words is that as soon as Andrew Poelstra invented the necessary crypto component to make confidential assets work, it became clear that we would want to wait until this new CA was finished. Proper asset support has always been an essential part of my vision for Freicoin as it is necessary to construct other forms of decentralized money (e.g. classic ripple) as well as interesting smart contracts. Confidential assets was released this year, and made more polished in the last few months in preparation for the BC2 conference, where the necessary features for distributed exchanges were also written. It's now in a state where we can talk about brining it into production on Freicoin. This was Mimblewimble! No, I'm not secretly Voldemort, nor does Voldie work at my employer as far as I'm aware. However we were working on some similar ideas for non-interactive CoinJoin using confidential transactions and one-way aggregatable signatures. Voldemort independently invented the same tricks, and to his/her credit realized that it allowed A LOT more than just non-interactive CoinJoin. It also turns out that it doesn't have to be a hard-fork change, other than the introduction of confidential transactions itself. Mimblewimble can be implemented on Elements Alpha without any changes. However it does need some work to reconcile with confidential assets, so some basic research here might be required. It is however high priority research at my employer and I am hopeful that we can see production-ready results on a relatively short timeframe. The only other features not mentioned here are a bunch of little improvements to bitcoin script that makes writing smart contracts much easier or allows more powerful contracts. That might be a good topic for another post. Many of these are already implemented in the elements codebase, but just need some review and testing before production use. Finally, a word needs to be said about merged mining. In fact this deserves its own post and I will make one in time, but the short TL;DR is that Jorge and I differ on our views about this. Given what we have seen happen in the Bitcoin space with respect to mining, ASICBOOST, and segregated witness, I no longer have faith that SHA256 mining can be used to secure a high-value network. And as bad as the situation is for bitcoin, it would likely be even worse for a merged mined coin, as in practice merge mining sees higher rates of centralization. I think there is a strong argument for switching to a new proof of work entirely, one which is not ASIC resistant (that's a unicorn that doesn't exist), but rather tries to minimize the performance gap between high-end general compute ad specialized hardware. Cuckoo Cycle is an example of one such PoW algorithm. In any case, I'll post my thoughts regarding this in another thread. I hope others are as excited about bringing these new features to Freicoin as I am. I think the applications that can be built on top will do a lot to bring utility to freicoin as a medium of exchange for a generally useful block chain platform.
  21. 2 points
    Skaro

    Getting my Wallet... Will mine.

    Oh me too. Just updating the wallet for a couple of weeks takes longer that the initial load a month ago. I think this has to do with the denial of service attacks. Apperently there is a 'fast load' method, but I don't think this makes a difference for recent attacks. I too gave up. I will try 'fast load'. We have to figure this out so we can put Ethereum on the exchange. Honestly, I'm not sure how Ethereum can even function right now. I mean, my lap top has 12G of RAM and it can't update the wallet! To me, it's like Rick's animation ^^, a total car wreck.
  22. 2 points
    Skaro

    The end of the foundation

    @Fabrizio, regarding the parameters for option 2, I too did ask if @jtimon could maybe share some thoughts on that. And thanks for presenting your ideas too--although I wanted to wrap this up. He has so far clarified: 1)funds to go through miners, not POS; 2) one of the reasons we want to end the Foundation is because no alternative method for distribution was developed by us, so we shouldn't pretend that we will developed one now, 3) the goal is to end the Foundation, not to create another one. So option one represents the maximum time to distribute the funds, option 4 thier complete destruction. I think your suggest kinda falls under (2), we haven't got the basic income up and running yet. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, But it may not materialize. We could reasonably target having a round figure still of say 30 million. I think people reading Freicoin history will think, "they saw a problem and fixed it while still keeping that character of the coin the same." anyway keep discussing, but let's aim to get this wrapped up soon.
  23. 2 points
    Rik8119

    Need.. more.. FRC..

    GURLS & GUYS, i have to say: BTC looking very bullish atm IF it breaks ATH the next week we will see an Altcoinparty like never before, fasten your seat-belts and hold your keys tight, its gonne be rough... PURE PUMP!
  24. 2 points
    fedde

    Won't confirm

    It's not visable on the network so it is still stuck from my knowlege?
  25. 2 points
    Rik8119

    Solidar bot

    Shocking 1.2 bln people are living on 2$ a day.. With a SLR price of 30 000$ we could pay everybody on the world 60$ basic income! #double #keepdreaming! http://www.twodollarsaday.com/
  26. 2 points
    Bicknellski

    Hello

    Hey Kieran welcome back bud. I just borrow Freicoin from these fools for 0% interest that is my game.
  27. 2 points
    Fabrizio

    The end of the foundation

    I would've liked to see the Foundation continue. At the current moment in time though, I understand the wish to end it since there is no tested-to-work tech for the fair distribution (self-sovereign/decentralized ID, WOT, voting systems).. as well as the inability of our small community to launch the many centralized experiments we've discussed/planned/outlined to attract wider user base Option 3 I dislike, since there are a bunch of coins in lost privkeys (and possibly in questionable entities possession; case Cryptsy) -> Drags out the "full supply" of coins available for circulation. I'd prefer option 4, but option 2 could be as acceptable Option 1... I wouldnt like to see inflation added, but it wouldnt drive me away from Freicoin neither. Edit: Short off-topic comment @ Arc and Bick: I totally see both of yer points and comments and theres validity to them.. especially with that theres not been that much communication with the devs during the past years with the couple of channels we tried (Forum/IRC/Mumble/Blab etc.), but there wasnt too much attendance from the community neither To make this short; the Bitcoin development team has done some mindblowing codewizardry during these years that will benefit Freicoin too once the client gets updated Theres also the things from Blockstream projects that Jorge mentioned above that are really neat and should help with the experiments we've discussed before. So dont be too harsh with Jtimon and Maaku, I think we've (the world) benefited more with them working on those projects ^^ (pfft.. not that short.. I'll try to trickytrick with smaller font :D)
  28. 2 points
    Skaro

    The end of the foundation

    regarding distributing mining coins in a different way, could CPU mining be a solution? Obviously not for the hash rate, but for identifying a participant. Then mining rewards can be distributed on a weighting factor between hash rate and no of participants (as identified by the network of wallets configured for mining). I suppose this has nothing to do with developers but rather P2pool.
  29. 2 points
    Skaro

    The end of the foundation

    @jtimon, could you maybe say what you thought would be a good set of parameters for Option 2? I assume this would set the time frame and payment regime for the Foundation funds? Anyway, option 3 looks bad. One thing there is to learn about the Foundation is that bad optics should be avoided. While the Foundation funds have remained mostly untouched, people had viewed it as a possible scam. So then we distribute the Foundation funds and the richest people get richer--pure POS. After we multiply all address balances by 5, what then? Where are you going to spend it? Its like you and your friends declaring leaves money then dividing all the leaves in your backyard amoungst each other. At least miners need to pay an electricity bill--that's legitimate economic circulation. (LOL I digress.) Also, we don't want to replace it with another type of Foundation either. Increasing users and use for the coin is the end game. With increased use the hash rate fixes itself, money circulates, the value will be more constant etc, and there will be more volunteers and community members! So we want to keep the optics good. Presently, debating here, we are actually agreeing on important things: 1) the Foundation must end, and 2) that the community is welcome to code and develop things that interests them. All options 1,2 and 4 are fine.
  30. 2 points
    Rik8119

    The end of the foundation

    @Arcurus POS is surely useful to keep the coins from the exchange what is artificial demand that is created. But Demurrage is to encourage the stakeholder to lend their money for zero interest, POS is doing the opposite. I know that you want the currency to be some sort of governmental structure (perform lending and distribution -which is a honorable idea) but i don't see that it is doable. And with so many different ideas in the pipe i think it is better to build a bank that is doing the social lending and some charity that supports social organizations (both then are not part of the currency) just to keep the currency simple. It was also hard for me to internalize that Freicoin is just Bitcoin with demurrage but thats what it is, I offered the community to further develop the coin but there was no consens, only more fresh ideas. So if one wants some redistribution mechanism (Yes, "The community" did develop some other distribution mechanism -UBI) one may want to think about switching to solidar and not being harsh with the devs ;-). Btw @jtimon i still dont see why reducing the mining reward is a soft fork since coins from the high mining fee chain wont be valid on the low mining fee chain.
  31. 2 points
    Bicknellski

    The end of the foundation

    It might be tangential to this discussion, however it is not tangential to this community in that if you promise to deliver changes on what we are voting on then fail to follow up on developing the coin further why should we invest time? You and Mark have not really been setting development goals and updating the coin over the past two years. I think it is also important to note that giving up on the idea of foundation (Mark and Jorge's idea) is just one more signal that you want to divest yourself of responsibility to this tiny community. That might not be the intention but it sure is what some people think. Let me be really frank here. It would be best that you come up with a plan with goals and then tell the community what this road map is and begin doing it. I agree with what you are proposing and I agree with your assessment about what FRC should be and I think option 1 is the right move as is option 4 as well, so please make that happen asap or at least cap debate here and move on already it is bogged down at this point. POS vs. POW is not a relevant debate and way way way off topic really. As for anything else well I want to see a clear outline with at least something that can be measured. I think the community here has done what it can given that we have seen promises for updates and changes to the coin before and nothing substantive has happened. Passing some of the blame to the community is fair but to be honest without developers pushing changes and improving the coin what do you expect a community to do? We basically have no users because the coin is not promoted by those who developed it. If you don't have the time or want to let it die then tell us now or make a real effort to plan a revival of the coin. Sorry but the real issue here is that we lack a community of sufficient size to really to do much of anything to progress the coin it would entirely rest on the developers shoulders to provide the stimulus to engage a much larger community. Without any direction and lack of updates this coin has failed to attract a larger community. You two need to have a greater vision or plan ala Vitalik Buterin. He was willing to step up and put in time and draw more developers to his way of thinking because of his vision. Freicoin has a greater potential to be disruptive compared to Ethereum given core economics of Freicoin. Do you guys want to push that or just keep debating here in this obscure corner of the cryptocoin world with people who are not necessarily your peers? To me that is a waste of time given the debates on these issues were already conducted 3 or 4 years ago. Rather than debating 3 or 4 people on things, what you really need is a real cabal of developers to move FRC forward not us laymen see Vitaly Buterin again as the gold standard for drawing people in with an idea out of nothing with zero base. Where have those people gone you had originally supporting development? They left for a number of reasons but I suspect there was little or no interest remaining as there was no active development. No challenges. No vision. No plan. Don't make the same mistake. This is not a community large enough to be a relevant sounding board for you two to develop the coin into something that is targeting a user base of millions of people. You need to bring in a larger team of people with ideas for growth that will draw a real user base. Until you need to involve more people in decision making from a wider community of coin users it be better to make a plan, invest time into carrying that plan out and when the millions of users do come on board you can work like Ethereum or Bitcoin Core etc. and talk to the community about options. I value that you are trying to fix mistakes and work with this community but your time is limited and should be focused on developing the coin not debating the very core concept of the coin or the foundation. It is great you want to engage with us but really. Set your vision and make it happen then we can debate the validity of your choices or offer up suggestions to make the coin easier to use.
  32. 2 points
    jtimon

    The end of the foundation

    > with the BTC from the ico, you pay the developers to work full-time on FRC and do promotion Which developers are interested in doing that? I'm not interested in beig paid by an ICO and I'm pretty sure maaku doesn't want that either. > Certainly, you know the issues surrounding coming regulation better than most. No, actually, I don't. But I never wanted to be paid from money collected through an "ICO" precisely because I don't know and I don't want to find out the hard way.
  33. 2 points
    Adilado

    withdraw from freiexchange

    Yes, the error was on my end. Quickest withdrawal I have ever seen, five out of five stars
  34. 2 points
    fedde

    Future of Freicoin

    I am actually finalyzing the exchange as we chit chat here, all tests are looking good so i am wrapping up and preparing to release it. As arc says, if you want to get that amount of coins, it's not unreal to gain that in a month or two, coins are circulating and the userbase is growing slowly.
  35. 2 points
    Arcurus

    Future of Freicoin

    @Adilado welcome to Freicoin. What brought you to Freicoin? Have you read what Freicoin is about or do you just search for coins to invest in? Currntly in Freicoin the situation is this: the core developer of Freicoin became core developers of Bitcoin, since then they are super busy. Freicoin 0.9 is ready to be used thx to @fedde, but is still under testing. @Rik8119 wants to port Freicoin code to 0.14 Currently there is a discussion how we proceed with the Freicoin Foundation that holds 80% of the coins. It looks like that the foundation coins will be brought into circulation through mining. We are thinking about adding a soft fork, that allows using some part of the redistributed coins for Freicoin related projects. But this is not set in stone yet. @fedde is mainly working on bringing more currencies to Freiexchange. He also planned to setup a web wallet so that Freicoin will be easy to use. @Adilado thx for your interest, i hope i could answer your questions.
  36. 2 points
    Arcurus

    The end of the foundation

    i thought about it. i would go along with option two if we combine it with a softfork, that allows to redistribute some part of the block reward other than mining. In away it would be enough if the main Freicoin clients (currently this are mainly feddes nodes (exchange / mining pool)) runs this softfork, so we could change it easily without the need to change all nodes if we want to update the redistribution mechanism. the softfork could be that easy like this: the main Freicoin nodes enforce that a certain part of the block reward is send to a specific address if less then 100.000 coins are on the address. if we don't empty the address than at max 100.000 coins will hang on it. In the future we could implement a smarter distribution mechanism like outlined in other posts.
  37. 2 points
    Rik8119

    The end of the foundation

    If this could be done it only just shifts our problems into the future: Freicoin has no sustainable redistribution mechanism, concentrating power on the miners. The other big problem is attention. Only projects that hare some fancy new tech are recognized and make new aths every few weeks. All is concentrated on them and people cant look through all those commercials (there are now facebook adds for Ethereum ICOs), to see that 90% of these are made of hot air.. But as many dont recognize those who see it have to follow the masses to make profits. Im totally annoyed by this system but there is not much we can do about it atm. I think what Freicoin needs are two things: 1 a sustainable redistribution system QE for people not for miners 2. Another global depression. In the end freicoin could only be prepared (what it is not).
  38. 2 points
    Rik8119

    The end of the foundation

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is also what i was thinking.
  39. 2 points
    Arcurus

    The end of the foundation

    +1 for me just having demurrage is not what inspired me to support Freicoin I invested in Freicoin with the promise that i could use these to get donation matching to encourage to support further projects. i understand that you want to close down the foundation. but simply increasing the mining reward and therefore inflate the coins it not what was promised. if you want to bring the coins into circulation do that now and not in a constant drain through mining. i don't see how higher mining rewards will benefit the coin, more coins means simply less price per coin. if Freicoin stays like it is now with just demurrage to miners i'm out. At best i would see if the coins would be distributed as negative exchange fees. this will bring liquidity which is most important for a currency.
  40. 2 points
    jtimon

    The end of the foundation

    Thanks everyone for sharing your views! > Woergl f.e. was the most successful freigeld currency and they used it to pay for social infrastructure. And IMHO it is the only reasonable purpose to redistribute money to the poor. The purpose of freigeld is not to redistribute money to the poor, but rather remove the existence of poverty under the assumption that is caused by chronic interest and cyclic monetary velocity. > option 2 is not fair to investors. I don't see why not. The coins were planned to be put in circulation either way. As "investor" I don't consider it unfair.
  41. 2 points
    Arcurus

    The end of the foundation

    as @Rik8119 said option 2 is not fair to investors.
  42. 1 point
    Rik8119

    Getting my Wallet... Will mine.

    Welcome to the worlds 1st super computer on the blockchain!
  43. 1 point
    Bicknellski

    Roadmap

    Will try and test this weekend.
  44. 1 point
    Arcurus

    The end of the foundation

    doesn't sound that great to me. its basically Bitcoin with demurrage for eternity to miners what @jtimon suggested. i strongly oppose not to look into proof of stake security to the soft fork, that could be easy to implement, just add one address where some part of the block reward goes if less than 100K coins are on that and give control of the address to someone who does the job of distributing them. later we can decentralize it. simply destroy the coins seems up to now the best solution for the foundation. simply out of curiosity, where did the community fail in distributing the coins?
  45. 1 point
    Arcurus

    Testing Freicoin 0.9

    - to the foundation, as said, as it looks now it will be completely dissolved, so no demurrage or coins will go or hold by the foundation. - it looks like the coins from the foundation will come in circulation sooner or later, at least that is what up to now most of the community voted for, so that Freicoin will have 100 Million coins total in circulation as planned. - my suggestion is to add a softfork, that somepart of the demurrage could be used for other projects, for example development, or negative trading fees on Freiexchange. If done right users will hold some Freicoins and other assets that give stable value to Freicoin. later Freiexchange can be decentralized.
  46. 1 point
    Rik8119

    Solidar bot

    Additional info: the bot pays 10 SLR/month to every active user. To count as active a user must check ones balance once a month.
  47. 1 point
    fedde

    The end of the foundation

    Vote for option 1.
  48. 1 point
    kieranf

    Hello

    Oh is there skaro? where abouts can i find it? Cheers. So how many people are still actively using/improving Freicoin? Is Bick still floating around?
  49. 1 point
    I haven't read the whole post but I must say it is unlikely I will ever use, support or contribute in any way to an altcoin based on PoS. I also think that 1 min blocks and moving from demurrage to inflation are bad ideas. Since it seems to be based on different ideas and priorities I ask that please don't call this altcoin freicoin 2 and call it something else instead.
  50. 1 point
    Bicknellski

    Freicoin Loan - Learning to Make Chocolate

    More glamour shots of the chocolates. These photos will be used for a photographic business' 2017 calendar. I will try and get some free copies of it to send to you guys. These are not the final touched up photos just the raw ones if you can imagine these being any better.