Samuel

I have another variation with a centralized institution and verification levels instead of webOfTrust mechanism, just as a different proposal. 

What levels of verification do you suggest? And how are they defined?

4 Levels: 

• 1 | Anonymous: Login & Signup with normal user. Just look around, you are not verified yet.
  (verified: false)
• 2 | Verified: You have been verified by a member with level 3, you now receive Mangos
  (verified: true)
• 3 | Verificator: If you have been appointed by a member with level 4, you are able to identify other members
  (verified: true)
• 4 | RootVerificator: As root verificator, you are able to appoint Verificators and other Root Verificators
  (verified: true)

At which level will you get mangos distributed?
Level 2: The moment you are completely verified 

Who is able to verify who?
Level 1,2: notAllowed
Level 3: 1 and 2 
Level 4: 1,2 and 3

No verification lasts forever, when will be a renewal due or how can you fall out of your current verification level again?
No ideas yet, what would you suggest?

If there are black sheep abusing their verification level, who and how are they going to be suspended from their level?
No ideas yet, what would you suggest?

http://talk.liv.io/t/proposals-for-simple-verification-methods/14

In a way I am very pragmatic, if one project functions good, then go for it, but currently I am not ready to drop Freicoin completely, because I see,

that it has an functioning base with that we could right now make basic income and common good economy experiments.

Another solution would be to just use the Freicoin blockchain + the Freihour concept (defined as one average working hour) and start to make basic income experiments with that.

I see that both ways (with and without an fixed money supply) have their pros and cons.

Currently we should make experiments with both to get more experiences.

Please don't drop  Continue!! The only problem is, I can not help with anything blockchain related, I am simply to inexperienced up until this point. 

So my main focus will be on the mango variation with stable dividend, but I am open minded helping you out with a forked version and your own parameters. 

Sorry, I took the wrong quote, I meant the fixed amount of 100.000.000 FreiCoins is not suitable, since you will not have an even distribution over the time, even with restricting the income. Just imagining FreiCoin taking of in 3 years. those people having now at the moment 100.000 FreiCoins or 10FreiHours (I don't know the exchange rate at the moment), will still have a little more than 85000 Freicoins. If you have just 1 Million users thats an average of 100 coins per user => not really fair
Or am I misunderstanding your point there? 

 

I wonder if its a big task to hook/create a simple webfront like the Mangos, but use actual Freicoins?

Unfortunately for me this is a huge task, since I have not really a clue about professional programming. The stuff I have produced so far came just from messing around with bits and pieces I have taught myself. But if you find someone, who can do, go take it, its all open source, I would love to see it!  

since you seem to know some codemagicianing, hopefully you could resurrect some and get them to good use ^^

I'll try to learn as much as possible to be more magician (there is a lot of progress, have a look: http://mangos.liv.io) 

 I live in Finland, in a small town about 200km north from Helsinki. Mäntyharju being the municipality

That sounds lovely. One day I will have to come over

To be even more fair in the beginning the amount of universal dividend per participant could be limited to the value of an certain amount of average working hours, like suggested in the Freicoin basic income project.

Fixed amount still doesn't work for me. You would have to set the limited to one 7 billionth'd in order to make it fair, which you can of course do. But why making it complicated when it can be easy

100 Million coin supply and redistribution of 5% per year.
So that we can make experiments with the differences between them two 

You can fork it  

Above could be a easily communicated with:

- Every participant gets one mango per hour

- To be fair in the long run and encourage spending of mangos during one year 20% of the mangos are decaying on every account

 

In some years the  money supply per participant would be quite stable with going towards 24 mangos * 360 * 5 = 43.200 mangos per participant at max 

Well said! I take that explanation, thank you!  ... and will change the underlying algorithm structure 

Sometimes the simple way is the hardest to find   

FRC Suggests: 5%
RTM suggests: 10%
WLC suggests: 20% 

In the end the best value to be found here is a matter of making the experience in a greater community. I have chosen for the demonstration 20% since it will give the mangos a greater velocity. And I have choosen a starting value of 100 Coins (I can change that to 10000000, but is doesn't make a difference!!). 

To the more fair in the beginning we could start with 1000 ¨virtual¨ users so the first participant gets 1/1000 of the redistribution not 100%

As you are suggesting yourself, it is not fair if you start with 5-10 people getting the whole income, and it still is not fair with 1000 people, it will only be fair with 7Billion people. 
This is exactly that element of time which RTM was incorporating into their formula: An even distribution of value, even over the course of time.

The exact formula is:
UD(t+1) = MAX { UD(t) ; c * M(t) / N(t) }

where c = annual growth rate  (0.1 or 10%) 

You don't seem to understand the concept of the relational unit so far, it doesn't matter how many coins there are the only interesting value is the percentage you got of the total amount of coins. 
Coins = absolute value
Mangos = relational value (this can be your "percentage of coins x 100" or as you are suggesting 24 a day, I just updated it  ) 

And why if the redistribution is the main part, why then use another fixed mongo parameter like the 10 mangos per day?  And the fixed max generated monagos per user?

In order to have a unified understanding and standardized feeling, of how much I have and get compared to the other people.

require Facebook? Are you serious?

Jes, this is the simplest way at the moment for me to pull in real name and profile picture, and is the nearest I can get to simulate trust for the moment, don't forget I am not a programmer

4. Increase the money supply with x% per year and redistribute to all participants

It is distribute, not redistribute, but anyhow Mangos is exactly this Look at the Coins cell on the people page. Those coins are growing with 20% every year. Mangos is just the relational unit which you can put on whatever value you wish. I have chosen 10 per day, but if you wish 24, I can do  

Just put your request here: https://github.com/C...N/Mangos/issues

Here an easy demonstration to understand the underlying formula:

http://cuckooland.free.fr/TheRtmInColor.html

Or in short RTM is the better evolution of doge:

The people behind the RTM are intelligent mathematicians, who where analyzing over many years the economy and their numbers, thus their approach and formulas are well-founded. I don't see any reason to try to improve on that at this point in time.  

lol, thx to lorenz!

 

In case of an currency with fixed money supply I understand, that redistribution would be good, but in case of an money supply growing with each user, wouldnt it enough to pay out just the fixed amount of mangos per day and let the old manogs decay? This would give a more stable unit of account, because the amount of maongos per day per user stays the same. and one mango an hour sound good or?

This is just the case during the growing phase, the algorithm is made just after the RTM as explained here:

http://cuckooland.free.fr/TheRtmForTheKids.html

There will be a point where it is going to stabilize.

At the moment I have put 10 mangos a day as a UD, in total there is going to be about 18300 Mangos generated be verified person, which is going to be distributed logarithmically over time. 

So, my dear fellows, I have been hard-working the last days and have some progress to report:
Now, Mangos has a new home at http://mangos.liv.io

There is a new landing page at: http://liv.io
If you find bugs or have feature requests, please put them here: https://github.com/CO-OPEN/Mangos/issues

Cheers! Love to see you there. Please keep in mind, only if you sign up with Facebook, you will be able to get verified. This is our simulation during the the prototyping stage for a real world handshake. 

¨Every year 10% of the total Mangovolume are being redistributed¨

by the way it does not seem to redistribute, it does seem to just let them decay or does it really redistribute?

It is being redistributed in form of a basic income. So currently Lorenz is paying it to all other accounts, as you can see at the moment. 

The first thing I will do the next days, is to install mangos on my own servers and host it on my own domain, then I come back and work on feature requests and feedback  

I just verified you, please verify me as well before my time runs out
What speed would you prefer? A 1 month realworld cycle for 10 fake years? 

I like the speed, it does give it some kind of gaming factor. 
You will have to signup again, since with an update I had to reset my database, due to incompatibility  

Yes, and I am sure the the innovation curve is going to go up a lot over the next years, on blockchain and decentralized database technologies. 

Fabrizio, where are you living?
The simplest explanation for a relational currency would be: 
For each person there is a fixed amount of coins generated and yearly distributed between all accounts with a demurrage Fee like 5% or 10%
So f.e.
You, Arcurus and Me are starting each with 1000 Coins = total 3000 Coins
We do some heavy, lovely trading of goods and services, now it looks like this:
Me: 100
You: 500
Arcurus: 2400

Now every year, everyone will get 100 Coins as UD (Universal Dividend, 10% of the total Coins / 3 people) minus the DF (demurrageFee, 10% of each individuals account) 
Me: 100 + 100 (UD) - 10 (DF) = 190
You: 500 + 100 (UD) - 50 (DF) = 550
Arcurus: 2400 + 100 (UD) - 240 = 2260

There is one more factor, which I left out for an easier explanation: 
Everyone is not starting with 1000, but gets over the course of time at a logarithmic rate those 1000 Coins distributed, in order to have an even growth of the total money mass. 
 

In some years the money supply per participant would be quite stable with going towards 24 mangos * 365 * 5 ~43.800 mangos per participant at maximum

Totally aware of the rationalization, thats why I think a currency with implemented redistribution mechanism aka universal dividend is such an important thing to be discovered and researched. So, help me playing around with "mangos" and ask for features to be developed, in order to test things out that we can implement it later on in a "real world" currency.  

In most cases simplicity wins. both ways have there pros and cons.

In case of Freicoin the currency itself would be immune to multi accounts.

The distribution of coins could be handled in an second layer.

Maybe the Ucoin way is the best way to do it for the second layer?

Well said!

I am indeed imagining a combination of the both. I think the most important thing to be learned from ucoin or the theory of relational money is their approach on the general problematic about the unbalanced value increase of coins over the course of time. Meaning in case of Freicoin or any other cryptocurrency, the people in the beginning are getting an amount X of Freicoins, that over time in case of a much greater userbase have an exponentional gain in value, uneven compared to the people entering last. So, people entering first are having an significantly and unfair advantage, which I see as a major challenge.

So here a 3 Layer proposal:

Layer 1:

The network/database/ledger security layer, as suggested by you Arcurus (hopefully in a future version with a less energy intensive mechanism)  

Layer 2:

The generation of coins and creation of the trust network

In order to secure an even distribution of value over the course of time, the theory of relational money figured out, that it is important to couple the generation of money in a system tightly to the amount of real people in the system. 

In case of Freicoin or a possible future hard fork, you would decouple the generation of coins from the database layer as a variable and move it to the 2nd layer:

For example: If you have a 5% universal dividend (as in the case of Freicoin, ucoin is suggesting a min. of 10%, I think it should be even more), you generate every year, always calculated from the total mass of coins in time, 5% more coins and distribute them evenly between all verified accounts.

This way, you can even combine anonymous accounts with real verified people, with the only difference, that anonymous accounts will not be able to get in the favor of newly distributed coins and are only able to get coins through traditional trading.

¨MangoFactor: 1 Mango a day (Relational)

 Since you are generating every year new coins, you have an infinity growth of the total money mass, which will feel like a major inflation, but actually acts just like a demurrage Fee, which would be redistributed yearly between all users of Freicoin if you have a fixed amount of coins. But now the currency itself is not anymore really suitable as a measurement unit, thus creating the need for a relational unit. 

This topic is pretty good presented here, the RTM explained for children: http://cuckooland.free.fr/Sozi-RtmForTheKids_1-0-2.pdf

Layer 3:

Is the trading / transaction and exchange plattform for services and goods, including collaborative investing into shared open source projects, as I am beginning to demonstrate/prototype it with mangos.meteor.com 

I am planning to finance a 3 months Hackerspace to work deeper on this, have a look at it here:
http://forum.ucoin.io/t/a-3-months-hackerspace-who-where-and-when-i-pay/475

I updated it, now it is available at mangos.meteor.com
Looking forward to your feedback. 

I took a deeper look into uCoin and the RelativeMoneyTheory and was quite astound by their approach:
They came already up with a finished formula for a demurrage currency, distributing basicIncome regularly and based on the blockchain. And they found a solution to eliminate the need of Mining as well, just look a little bit around in their Forums: forum.ucoin.io
To demonstrate their approach, I took the formula and implemented it quickly in my Prototype: mangos.meteor.com

Suggestion for all here on the stagnating FreiCoinAlliance and the FreiCoinFoundation, since uCoin has a growing and active community and a lot of expertise and brain hours spended on the topic, merge with their mission on creating a relational demurrage currency with an universal dividend.
First try to understand their approach, fail, try again, look deeper, let your eyes grow, laugh and thank them for their great work on the topic (At least this was my way of getting into uCoin)

I have setup a test/prototype page here at mangos.meteor.com

Discussion to be continued here:
https://freicoinalliance.com/topic/140-test-group-basic-income-world-citizens-project-alpha-test-example/

I have setup a prototype page for a future FreiCoinWCD proposal with integrated WorldCitizenDividend to play around with different factors for research purpose.
Please Login with Facebook as a first step of verification. 
2.Step verify will be for the moment done manually by me, so just let me know here.

http://mangos.meteor.com

Current Settings:
DemurrageFee : 20% a year, distributed every second. 
I have set the Fee higher in order to reduce the gap between BasicIncome and Maximum Money, taking 5 years to redistribute all Foundation Funds as a basic Income equally between all verified members.