MANGOS - Prototyping a plattform for a universal dividend currency

[Samuel 23]

GO TO Mangos and SignUp: (Be warned, super alpha stadium, everything can break every time) 

mangos.liv.io

 

Mango generation:

Every verified member gets one mango per hour

Demurrage Fee: 20%

To be fair in the long run and encourage spending of mangos during one year 20% of the mangos are decaying on every verified account

Total Amount of Mangos to be generated per Person:

In some years the money supply per participant would be quite stable with going towards 24 mangos * 365 * 5 ~43.800 mangos per participant at maximum

Speed: 1sec interval

1 seconds is one virtual min

Verification Mechanism

You can only get verified, if you sign up with Facebook, this is simulating for the prototyping stage a real world handshake. 

Please put any Bugs, Requests or Wishes here:
https://github.com/C...N/Mangos/issues

Edited October 16, 2015 by Samuel

[Arcurus 331]

signed up...

great work!

 

Speed: 1sec interval

Every 24 seconds is one virtual day or every 7 days is 30 virtual years
Verification Mechanism

Currently every verified person can verify others. When verified you will receive the universal dividend. You have to be verified at minimum every 30 years (7 real world days) in order to keep receiving your daily income
 

 

lol, thats sounds like super duper speedy

[Samuel 23]

I like the speed, it does give it some kind of gaming factor. 
You will have to signup again, since with an update I had to reset my database, due to incompatibility  

[Fabrizio 162]

Great work! Registered miself too  
The speed feels a bit fast indeed, but will participate with interest to see how it goes ^^

[Samuel 23]

I just verified you, please verify me as well before my time runs out
What speed would you prefer? A 1 month realworld cycle for 10 fake years? 

[Fabrizio 162]

Verified you
Hmm, just throwing a number out of hat that "feels good".. maybe a speeding slowing of 10x? So if its now 24sec for virtual day -> 240sec. *hmmh*

[Arcurus 331]

registerd again

 

¨slowing of 10x? So if its now 24sec for virtual day -> 240sec. *hmmh*¨

+1

 

hmm maybe,  for this test stage its super

 

And verification stays for 5 years instead of 30, otherwise one dead person will get up to 30 years divident or?

[Arcurus 331]

By the way, if I click on verify nothing is happening, or where do I see if something was happening?

 

P.s.: Ah... found it out!

[Arcurus 331]

Finally I am rich! Have now more then 5000 Mangos

oh no, I lost my Mangos, poor again :/

[Arcurus 331]

here some feedback:

- Bugs: sending negative money

 

Suggestions:

- add the possibilit to add picture or link to picture / social profile

- Change: So that one ¨accepted¨ verification counts for both mango eaters (participants )

because if you need to verify somebody, so or so you need to see his real face, to verify the picture

maybe better to call it verified friend and make it similar friend request in social networks

 

 

Further ideas:

Currently I am thinking about an web of trust system with playful trust levels, would be great to test out some ideas here:

 

First:

- Add option to donate to the Universal Dividend Project / Donations are redistributed to all participants

- Add listing of all donations

- Change: Restrict verification to one verification per donated  24 Mangos (DailyIncome)

This would give the first usecase to Mangos and test some alternative verification system

 

Second:

 

- Add display of mango Levels:

 

Level 1 = 10 frienddays

Level 2 = 30 frienddays

Level 3 = 60 frienddays

Level 4 = 100 frienddays

...

 

friendday += (Sum LevelFriends) * days - demurrage

--> the more friends the better

--> the higher their level the better

 

- Change distribution of mangos and donated mangos according to levels

the higher the level the more mangos

(Of course this would not be relative money anymore...)

[Samuel 23]

The first thing I will do the next days, is to install mangos on my own servers and host it on my own domain, then I come back and work on feature requests and feedback  

[Arcurus 331]

¨Every year 10% of the total Mangovolume are being redistributed¨

by the way it does not seem to redistribute, it does seem to just let them decay or does it really redistribute?

[Samuel 23]

¨Every year 10% of the total Mangovolume are being redistributed¨

by the way it does not seem to redistribute, it does seem to just let them decay or does it really redistribute?

It is being redistributed in form of a basic income. So currently Lorenz is paying it to all other accounts, as you can see at the moment. 

[Arcurus 331]

It is being redistributed in form of a basic income. So currently Lorenz is paying it to all other accounts, as you can see at the moment. 

lol, thx to lorenz!

 

In case of an currency with fixed money supply I understand, that redistribution would be good, but in case of an money supply growing with each user, wouldnt it enough to pay out just the fixed amount of mangos per day and let the old manogs decay? This would give a more stable unit of account, because the amount of maongos per day per user stays the same. and one mango an hour sound good or?

[Samuel 23]

So, my dear fellows, I have been hard-working the last days and have some progress to report:
Now, Mangos has a new home at http://mangos.liv.io

There is a new landing page at: http://liv.io
If you find bugs or have feature requests, please put them here: https://github.com/CO-OPEN/Mangos/issues

Cheers! Love to see you there. Please keep in mind, only if you sign up with Facebook, you will be able to get verified. This is our simulation during the the prototyping stage for a real world handshake. 

[Samuel 23]

lol, thx to lorenz!

 

In case of an currency with fixed money supply I understand, that redistribution would be good, but in case of an money supply growing with each user, wouldnt it enough to pay out just the fixed amount of mangos per day and let the old manogs decay? This would give a more stable unit of account, because the amount of maongos per day per user stays the same. and one mango an hour sound good or?

This is just the case during the growing phase, the algorithm is made just after the RTM as explained here:

http://cuckooland.free.fr/TheRtmForTheKids.html

There will be a point where it is going to stabilize.

At the moment I have put 10 mangos a day as a UD, in total there is going to be about 18300 Mangos generated be verified person, which is going to be distributed logarithmically over time. 

[Arcurus 331]

Cheers! Love to see you there. Please keep in mind, only if you sign up with Facebook, you will be able to get verified. This is our simulation during the the prototyping stage for a real world handshake. 

require Facebook? Are you serious?

[Arcurus 331]

This is just the case during the growing phase, the algorithm is made just after the RTM as explained here:

http://cuckooland.free.fr/TheRtmForTheKids.html

There will be a point where it is going to stabilize.

At the moment I have put 10 mangos a day as a UD, in total there is going to be about 18300 Mangos generated be verified person, which is going to be distributed logarithmically over time. 

long manual to read... can you maybe write the argument for redistribution, or on which site i can find it in the manual?

 

I would make it as simple as possible.

 

Here are different solutions:

1. That means give fixed amount of mangos per user per day and add some rotting (demurrage)

Or even simpler

 

2. Start with some fixed amount of mangos and increase this amount per year with X percent.

 

3. Or use fixed money supply and redistribute X% per year to all participants (closest to Freicoin model)

 

or

4. Increase the money supply with x% per year and redistribute to all participants

 

From implementing aspect 4 would be the most easy.

Three can be implement with 4 by just changing how the currency is displayed.

 

Version 1 and 2 would increase the money supply with each user d.h. the money is not separated from users.

Version 3 would be most similar to Freicoin

Version 4 to dogecoin

 

Version 1 would have the benefit, that you could connect it from the beginning on to an fixed unity like one hour...

Version 3 would have this benefit the long run, once the most participants are registered...

 

Currently I tend to solution 3 (if the redistribution is bigger then 5% or  4 (if the redistribution is less then 5%)

[Arcurus 331]

so for the moment here are my suggestions:

increase mongos per day to 24, so that one hour is one mango.

destroy mangos instead of redistribute them (this simulates)

This would simulate Version 1 (see last post)

[Arcurus 331]

or simulate Freicoin like with 100 Million units and 5% redistribution

or the most simple way dogecoin like with 100 Million units and 5% increase that is redistributed

 

To the more fair in the beginning we could start with 1000 ¨virtual¨ users so the first participant gets 1/1000 of the redistribution not 100%

[Samuel 23]

require Facebook? Are you serious?

Jes, this is the simplest way at the moment for me to pull in real name and profile picture, and is the nearest I can get to simulate trust for the moment, don't forget I am not a programmer

4. Increase the money supply with x% per year and redistribute to all participants

It is distribute, not redistribute, but anyhow Mangos is exactly this Look at the Coins cell on the people page. Those coins are growing with 20% every year. Mangos is just the relational unit which you can put on whatever value you wish. I have chosen 10 per day, but if you wish 24, I can do  

Just put your request here: https://github.com/C...N/Mangos/issues

Here an easy demonstration to understand the underlying formula:

http://cuckooland.free.fr/TheRtmInColor.html

Or in short RTM is the better evolution of doge:

The people behind the RTM are intelligent mathematicians, who where analyzing over many years the economy and their numbers, thus their approach and formulas are well-founded. I don't see any reason to try to improve on that at this point in time.  

 

[Arcurus 331]

Which formulas?

The example demonstration of the formula just shows the increase of money supply with each parameter, but they don’t say which parameter is best or?

 

Just for clarity

In the monago example it looks like a redistribution not an inflation of the money like in the demonstration of the formula or? Of course both would have the same distribution effect, but other psychological effects and technical needs.

 

And why if the redistribution is the main part, why then use another fixed mongo parameter like the 10 mangos per day?  And the fixed max generated monagos per user?

 

I would make it simpler and start with an fixed money supply of fore example 100 billion mangos, redistribute x% (5%* if you ant to simulate Freicoin) and drop the generated fixed amount of mangos per user**

 

Or if you prefer to increase the max money supply per user (which i would currently not recommend, because it makes the currency itself attack able with double accounts)

give out an fixed amount of mangos per day like 24 and let them decay with x%.

 

But to combine both (redistribution and fixed mangos per day) seems to make it more complicated then needed.

 

I would keep it as simple as possible.

 

*As far as I now the redistribution percent in Freicoin comes also out of solid economic studies...

 

**If you want it make even more simple to implement, start with 100 Billion money supply, increase it with x% per year and redistribute this, but with X>3, the numbers will grow quick....

[Samuel 23]

FRC Suggests: 5%
RTM suggests: 10%
WLC suggests: 20% 

In the end the best value to be found here is a matter of making the experience in a greater community. I have chosen for the demonstration 20% since it will give the mangos a greater velocity. And I have choosen a starting value of 100 Coins (I can change that to 10000000, but is doesn't make a difference!!). 

To the more fair in the beginning we could start with 1000 ¨virtual¨ users so the first participant gets 1/1000 of the redistribution not 100%

As you are suggesting yourself, it is not fair if you start with 5-10 people getting the whole income, and it still is not fair with 1000 people, it will only be fair with 7Billion people. 
This is exactly that element of time which RTM was incorporating into their formula: An even distribution of value, even over the course of time.

 

The exact formula is:
UD(t+1) = MAX { UD(t) ; c * M(t) / N(t) }

where c = annual growth rate  (0.1 or 10%) 

You don't seem to understand the concept of the relational unit so far, it doesn't matter how many coins there are the only interesting value is the percentage you got of the total amount of coins. 
Coins = absolute value
Mangos = relational value (this can be your "percentage of coins x 100" or as you are suggesting 24 a day, I just updated it  ) 

And why if the redistribution is the main part, why then use another fixed mongo parameter like the 10 mangos per day?  And the fixed max generated monagos per user?

In order to have a unified understanding and standardized feeling, of how much I have and get compared to the other people.

[Arcurus 331]

In order to have a unified understanding and standardized feeling, of how much I have and get compared to the other people.

But doesnt the amount of howmuch you get per day change in your example if you redistribute 20% of mangos instead of letting them just decay?

 

 

it doesn't matter how many coins there are the only interesting value is the percentage you got of the total amount of coins

That I understand quite well. 

In case of fixed amount of mangos per day and letting them decay everybody will always get the same amount of mangos relative to other participants and relative to time for eternity.

And because of the decay as suggested above the relation between mangos given out per and per participant and the total amount of mangos out there will balance quickly.

As said I see no need in making it more complicated then needed, I would drop either the fixed mangos per day per participant, or drop the distribution of mangos and just let them decay.

 

Above could be a easily communicated with:

- Every participant gets one mango per hour

- To be fair in the long run and encourage spending of mangos during one year 20% of the mangos are decaying on every account

 

In some years the  money supply per participant would be quite stable with going towards 24 mangos * 360 * 5 = 43.200 mangos per participant at max

 

Or if you want to work with an fixed money supply like Freicoin, this could be explained even shorter:

- In total there are 100 Million mangos out there

- To be fair and encourage participation every year 20% of the mangos are distributed equally to all participants

 

also in the later case the relative amount of universal dividend compared to the max money supply would be quite stable in the long run.

For me the most important is, that it is simple and fair in the long run.

 

And yes, I also see fairness even in the short run for the later approach with fixed money supply.

Because in the beginning the value per coin is cheaper and the risk to hold is is higher.

With the demurrage those who hold the coin, would soon support those which come later. (in 23 years with 5% demurrage like Freicoin 66% of the coins would be redistributed, 12 years with 10%)

As time comes and more join the relative amount of currency payed out per participant would become more and more stable.

To be even more fair in the beginning the amount of universal dividend per participant could be limited to the value of an certain amount of average working hours, like suggested in the Freicoin basic income project.

 

 

 

The exact formula is:

UD(t+1) = MAX { UD(t) ; c * M(t) / N(t) }

where c = annual growth rate  (0.1 or 10%)

 

What is M(t) and N(t)? M = Money supply and N = Number of participants?

 

And how you would explain that formula in words so that it explainable without math?

 

As said the question is if it is worth to have such a complex formula, or isn’t it better to use one of the more simple options as outlined above?

[Samuel 23]

Above could be a easily communicated with:

- Every participant gets one mango per hour

- To be fair in the long run and encourage spending of mangos during one year 20% of the mangos are decaying on every account

 

In some years the  money supply per participant would be quite stable with going towards 24 mangos * 360 * 5 = 43.200 mangos per participant at max 

Well said! I take that explanation, thank you!  ... and will change the underlying algorithm structure 

Sometimes the simple way is the hardest to find