Interesting project that tries also to give out an Universal Dividend

[Arcurus 331]

Hi all,

here an Link to an project, that tries also give out an Universal Dividend.

Maybe we can learn from them or cooperate with them.

 

Main futures are a PGP web ob trust for giving out the universal dividend.

 

And alternative mining. Proof of Work combined with web of trust (proof of human).

In short to take part in mining you must take part in the web of trust.

Each member has the same chance to find a block. Once you found a block your chance gets smaller.

 

 

 

Have fun,

Arcurus

  Universal Dividend  

Every member regularly receives a Universal Dividend (i.e. monetary Basic Income) coming from new money directly issued bymembers and to members.

 

http://ucoin.io/

[Fabrizio 162]

Read over the 'Theoretical' page quickly, and this indeed seems pretty interesting Will get more into reading about this in the evening, but yeah, I think both coins could benefit and learn by working together ^^ 

[Samuel 23]

I took a deeper look into uCoin and the RelativeMoneyTheory and was quite astound by their approach:
They came already up with a finished formula for a demurrage currency, distributing basicIncome regularly and based on the blockchain. And they found a solution to eliminate the need of Mining as well, just look a little bit around in their Forums: forum.ucoin.io
To demonstrate their approach, I took the formula and implemented it quickly in my Prototype: mangos.meteor.com

Suggestion for all here on the stagnating FreiCoinAlliance and the FreiCoinFoundation, since uCoin has a growing and active community and a lot of expertise and brain hours spended on the topic, merge with their mission on creating a relational demurrage currency with an universal dividend.
First try to understand their approach, fail, try again, look deeper, let your eyes grow, laugh and thank them for their great work on the topic (At least this was my way of getting into uCoin)

[Arcurus 331]

Hi Samuel,

I am thankful for all your energy you have!

 

Up to now I did not had time to look much into Ucoin, maybe its time to do now.

 

To use web of trust as mining sounds very interesting and is what we also discussed in Freicoin in the beginning.

What I am still not sure is if not something like proof of stake in combination some proof of work is more preferable, then an currency that is fully based on web of trust and has therefore the multi account problem.

 

But lets see maybe UCoin has an solution for that. Currently I think that it is good to test out both ways. One currency which separates the security from humans, and one with combines both.

 

In most cases simplicity wins. both ways have there pros and cons.

In case of Freicoin the currency itself would be immune to multi accounts.

The distribution of coins could be handled in an second layer.

Maybe the Ucoin way is the best way to do it for the second layer?

 

But as said I first must more look into Ucoin,

 

 

By the way nice site that you created!

 

But what on earth is the mango factor?

 

¨MangoFactor: 1 Mango a day (Relational)

This is your Unit and relational fixpoint, in order to develop your comparision skill between your own mountain of Mangos and the Mango hills of others¨

 

Hope to hear more from you, maybe we can meet in Germany?

 

Greetings from Tuscany,

Arcurus

 

By the way, I moved your post to the Ucoin topic

[Samuel 23]

In most cases simplicity wins. both ways have there pros and cons.

In case of Freicoin the currency itself would be immune to multi accounts.

The distribution of coins could be handled in an second layer.

Maybe the Ucoin way is the best way to do it for the second layer?

Well said!

I am indeed imagining a combination of the both. I think the most important thing to be learned from ucoin or the theory of relational money is their approach on the general problematic about the unbalanced value increase of coins over the course of time. Meaning in case of Freicoin or any other cryptocurrency, the people in the beginning are getting an amount X of Freicoins, that over time in case of a much greater userbase have an exponentional gain in value, uneven compared to the people entering last. So, people entering first are having an significantly and unfair advantage, which I see as a major challenge.

So here a 3 Layer proposal:

Layer 1:

The network/database/ledger security layer, as suggested by you Arcurus (hopefully in a future version with a less energy intensive mechanism)  

Layer 2:

The generation of coins and creation of the trust network

In order to secure an even distribution of value over the course of time, the theory of relational money figured out, that it is important to couple the generation of money in a system tightly to the amount of real people in the system. 

In case of Freicoin or a possible future hard fork, you would decouple the generation of coins from the database layer as a variable and move it to the 2nd layer:

For example: If you have a 5% universal dividend (as in the case of Freicoin, ucoin is suggesting a min. of 10%, I think it should be even more), you generate every year, always calculated from the total mass of coins in time, 5% more coins and distribute them evenly between all verified accounts.

This way, you can even combine anonymous accounts with real verified people, with the only difference, that anonymous accounts will not be able to get in the favor of newly distributed coins and are only able to get coins through traditional trading.

¨MangoFactor: 1 Mango a day (Relational)

 

 Since you are generating every year new coins, you have an infinity growth of the total money mass, which will feel like a major inflation, but actually acts just like a demurrage Fee, which would be redistributed yearly between all users of Freicoin if you have a fixed amount of coins. But now the currency itself is not anymore really suitable as a measurement unit, thus creating the need for a relational unit. 

This topic is pretty good presented here, the RTM explained for children: http://cuckooland.free.fr/Sozi-RtmForTheKids_1-0-2.pdf

Layer 3:

Is the trading / transaction and exchange plattform for services and goods, including collaborative investing into shared open source projects, as I am beginning to demonstrate/prototype it with mangos.meteor.com 

[Fabrizio 162]

Hi Samuel! Nice to have you here
Interesting ideas for the economy Too bad that most of this stuff goes over the top of mi head, so cant really comment on any of it Been trying to grasp an lil understanding of different theories and "law"s for the past months.. but I'm still totally at loss Hehe

 

I've been pondering about how to adopt a simple system for a small local economy. Whats good to introduce first to get people used to the new idea, and whats the essentials to avoid abuse or misbehaviour? What test cases can be tried out with 10-40 people?

You guys have any insights or opinions?  

Ohh, and having events like the Hackerspace is a great idea too in mi opinion, would gladly join if there was one a bit nearer

[Arcurus 331]

@Fab

Have sent you en example for how to start an currency with 10+ people.

 

Currently its just a draft in German, so you would have to use some kind of translation tool

[Samuel 23]

Fabrizio, where are you living?
The simplest explanation for a relational currency would be: 
For each person there is a fixed amount of coins generated and yearly distributed between all accounts with a demurrage Fee like 5% or 10%
So f.e.
You, Arcurus and Me are starting each with 1000 Coins = total 3000 Coins
We do some heavy, lovely trading of goods and services, now it looks like this:
Me: 100
You: 500
Arcurus: 2400

Now every year, everyone will get 100 Coins as UD (Universal Dividend, 10% of the total Coins / 3 people) minus the DF (demurrageFee, 10% of each individuals account) 
Me: 100 + 100 (UD) - 10 (DF) = 190
You: 500 + 100 (UD) - 50 (DF) = 550
Arcurus: 2400 + 100 (UD) - 240 = 2260

There is one more factor, which I left out for an easier explanation: 
Everyone is not starting with 1000, but gets over the course of time at a logarithmic rate those 1000 Coins distributed, in order to have an even growth of the total money mass. 
 

[Fabrizio 162]

Thanks Arcurus Noticed it the other day, but havent had the time to translate and look into it properly. Have some famliy visiting for some days, but I'll hope to get to it in a few days 

 

Samuel, thats a good simple example and and logically explained, thanks 

I wonder if its a big task to hook/create a simple webfront like the Mangos, but use actual Freicoins? We've had a few similar ideas around the community, but like Arc has mentioned, theres been only a few coders.
For alpha and everything testing, rough and out-there builds are fine, so everything doesnt need to be on the blockchain at first.. but would be great if there would be somehow do the accounting so, that one can have Freicoins they "own" in their wallets if they want at some points. We already have some tools that could be useful in such tests, and since you seem to know some codemagicianing, hopefully you could resurrect some and get them to good use ^^
Fedde's minershare system could be tuned to be used in the early dividend handling... or something, I'm rambling again  

But yeah, I live in Finland, in a small town about 200km north from Helsinki. Mäntyharju being the municipality The townsfolks are mostly older folk, with very few youngsters around.. but they're pretty active and community spirited peoples some of them I've managed to get some of them to try out the "feel" of alternative currencies with Freicoin, with paper wallets and being like an accountant and doing things on gadgets for them Very few from these folks are tech oriented though.. my uncle dont have a PC and rarely even uses his dumbphone for example .. so its hard to find actual participants for tests from around here :I
At the "city" center of Mäntyharju though, theres lil more people and tech oriented youngsters who would be a bit more suited audience and have shown some interest already too. Hehe, coding an easy to use and open custom system has been the biggest ~obstacle here too, but maybe and hopefully we cant get something cooking this winter

[Arcurus 331]

hi Fab,

why not use for the elder folks, some kind of bookeeping / freicoin paper checks?

 

If there are one or two who take care of the bookeeping this should function even for non tech people

[Fabrizio 162]

Yeah, we played around with the paper wallets with a few geezers a bit and it worked pretty fine as an alternative currency between us. 

However, with Freicoin theres a bit of a problem with the demurrage.. the 10FRC paper wallet is not 10FRC but for the moment its created. I guess it would be possible to create a system to work around it (book keeping), but I guess its too troublesome for the situation here in the town. 

 

While I hope to see a solution to the paper wallet situation in future, I wish to get the older folks to try out the gadgets for payments and getting them online to follow and participate with the community happenings.

[Samuel 23]

I wonder if its a big task to hook/create a simple webfront like the Mangos, but use actual Freicoins?

Unfortunately for me this is a huge task, since I have not really a clue about professional programming. The stuff I have produced so far came just from messing around with bits and pieces I have taught myself. But if you find someone, who can do, go take it, its all open source, I would love to see it!  

since you seem to know some codemagicianing, hopefully you could resurrect some and get them to good use ^^

I'll try to learn as much as possible to be more magician (there is a lot of progress, have a look: http://mangos.liv.io) 

 I live in Finland, in a small town about 200km north from Helsinki. Mäntyharju being the municipality

That sounds lovely. One day I will have to come over

[Fabrizio 162]

Ucoin is indeed an interesting project with an active (yet small contributing group) development. 
To get started with the experimenting, heres few links:

https://forum.ucoin.io/t/subscribing-to-meta-brouzouf-testing-currency/199 (short guide with links to installing Sakia (the lite client) and taking the first steps to "register")

https://forum.ucoin.io/t/tutorial-subscribe-to-the-testing-currency/143 (direct link to the Sakia install thread)

 

Post your user ID's here if you're registered!

My ID is 'Fabrizio'

And mi certification request thread on the forums: https://forum.ucoin.io/t/asking-for-certifications-fabrizio/638/

 

Hopefully we can get FA support for experimenting with this tool/project together in the future

[Arcurus 331]

my id is Arcurus