Arcurus
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Posts posted by Arcurus
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Also... the lack of any purposeful use of the coin seems to be the real limitation at the moment not fundamental in how it is coded structured to be honest.
Lack of use and users seems to be what led to the devaluation. Possibly merged mining could rectify that I suppose but that was already on the agenda according to Jtimon and Makku.
Yea we need real use cases that are unique to Freicoin!
For example the donation matching is unique to Freicoin, but still this needs some basic coding....
Other usescases could be something like the Freipay project. In the beginning we could also support proxy payments to Bitcoin addresses.
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As short feedback to the jobportal:
I think a jobportal could be a nice thing to have. In the beginning we can also use the Forum itself for that.
I think its generally good at this moment to focus on projects that are unique to Freicoin, but hey, if you always wanted to program such an job portal, why not
Generally I think for discussion of such projects its good to post in an own topic and post in this topic a small summary of the core idea, sso that this topic stays more a summary.
All the good and nice to have you Fabrizio
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Hi Fabrizio,
first of all thank you for joining! Nice to have you here!
Regarding to the Freicoin Foundation, I think there is a misunderstanding. Currently the Freicoinfoundation is not meant to support the core development of Freicoin in any way. Currently the task of the Freicoin Foundation is just to issue 80% of the coins, through alternative transparent, fair, issuing methods then mining.
See for in the Foundation FAQ:
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/freicoin-foundation-introduction-faq-t809.html
Since the beginning of Freicoin Mark wanted to have the Foundation task and the Developer tasks separated from each other.
Sadly at this time there was no one who wanted to handle the foundation stuff.
So it is now as it is.
But back to the topic:
"What actual services would you guys see to be the most important ones to help promote the idea behind Freicoin?"
At this time I think the best would be to focus on the part of Freicoin, that makes Freicoin different then other coins.
Currently that's mainly the donation matching.
First we should focus to bring that to run.
To make a simple program, that matches the donations daily should not be that difficult, but still we needed somebody to program it.
So here are my suggestions for really unique Freicoin specific projects:
Second:
The donating matching and foundation funds must be much more transparent, so that also non technical people can see what is going on. For example the matching program could create some html code to display the matching.
Also an donation counter which organisation has become how many donations in which time period.
More to that here:
These things are the basics!
Third,
We should focus on developing Freicoin specific projects like the Freipay Gateway, that helps to boost Freicoin payments. Such projects could bring real use cases to Freicoin.
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/freipay-gateway-supporting-an-economy-for-the-common-good-t854.html
Fourth,
Some kind of light wallet like electrum would be nice. Even better would be a deterministic web wallet, which has functionality like electrum, but could be saved like bitaddres to make sure, that the code did not change.
This wallet should also include the ability to send and receive 40 byte messages over the blockchain.
With these messages we could test some kind of decentralized voting.
Fifth,
We should keep on developing republicoin, to show, that an other decentralized and fair method other then mining is possible.
This would be equal to have a virtual Freicoin state / Federation.
More to that you can find here:
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/republicoin-design-discussion-t738.html
Of course all the other stuff, especially social media tipbots would be nice to have, but that is not what makes Freicoin different from other coins.
It would be really great to have these social media tipbots Fabrizio suggested, maybe in combination of giving some coins per day/ month to social media users this would be great.
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lol, I had more with development coding in mind, but why not little bid widen this topic
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Nice! And thx for all that you are doing, I have quite some ideas for stuff for the website, like an Freicoin FAQ.
The FAQ on Freio.in is quite outdated....
Maybe we can also use some part of the Foundation FAQ:
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/post7986.html#p7986
We could also more advertise the donation matching program on the website:
http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/donations
I think it would be generally good to make the donation part of Freicoin more visible.
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yea I have got my first like!
- Prometheus and fedde
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Hi Freicoiners,here is an crosspost from the Freicoin Forum:
I think that this review is a great opportunity to learn how we are perceived from the outside and what we can do better, especially now when we are starting the Freicoin Alliance.This review is now a little bit old, but I think the most points are still the same.And yea, some parts are really funny, just to mention the Freicoin "mystical" marketing expert, so take it with fun and enjoy!We should really read this and learn out of this how we are perceived!In the following I commented it a little bit self ironically (some parts was too funny to resit :roll: ), I think to lough about the own errors is the best way to learn!Don't forget we are all human! And humans make errors all the time! That's the reaon to be humans, otherwise the evolution would be boring!Here are some real targets to work on... how about we focus on these areas?This is a review from 2013 and nothing much has changed.------
"Freicoin is a crypto-currency descendant from Bitcoin which has integrated a unique system to discourage saving or hording coins called demurrage. Demurrage is basically the cost associated with holding currency. With a commodity such as gold the demurrage would be the cost of storing and securing the gold. In Freicoin’s case, the developers have deliberately instituted a demurrage fee into the protocol which automatically deducts and destroys coins held in your wallet over time. Sometimes referred to as ‘rotting coins’, it was included in the protocol to encourage spending and to discourage hording or saving. 5% of the total FRC supply is destroyed each year while miners continually refresh the supply with new coins through the mining process."Ok, on that we should work. Bringing at least 50% of the demurrage to common good projects would sound much more nice, then people perhaps understand that Freicoin "could" be more then only demurrage..."The Freicoin developers have some very specific economic and political leanings and appear to be reaching out to specific social interest groups. They appear to have some type of loose association with the Occupy Wall Street movement and actually mention this group several times on their web page. The Freicoin web page goes into great detail arguing that interest has been the cause of inequality, poverty and the regular boom and bust cycles throughout history. The Freicoin community is mostly concentrated at their own forum (link) but also has a number of posts on Bitcointalk.org. Most of the discussion appears to be oriented to practical aspects of the use and development of the alt-coin and seems to have minimal political and socioeconomic diatribes."Lol, "Most of the discussion appears to be oriented to practical aspects of the use and development of the alt-coin", I think they are mainly talking about my posts here
If they understood what this "development", for example of supporting non profits, or an decentralized coin rebublic would mean, then they would see, that this could have a big political and socioeconomic impact. Imagine only 5% of all the money supply yearly goes to non profits, in what a word we would live in, not to talk about the an possible impact of an World Citicens Divident or Economy where ethical businesses are supported... uiuiuiuiui"Community Support – The community support of Freicoin can be considered part of a real-life movement. The main priority for this coin’s developers and community is to convey their opinions about the current monetary system, they could almost be considered as an organization. The drawback of this isolation is the lack of appeal to gain further value. The developers remain very active, but again have a very small core audience. In this case, some of their rhetoric may not appear friendly to some. None the less, Freicoin has support from merchants and services; But, future acceptance may not be so kind to this coin."Lol, thats to much "convey their opinions about the current monetary system" who of you was that? Yea But Gesell said
"some of their rhetoric may not appear friendly to some"Hey come on who was that? Was that I? Please remind me if I am too "not friendly" or so :twisted:"Exchange Presence - Freicoin is currently listed on 3 exchanges: Cryptsy, Bter and Vircurex. Cryptsy retails the largest volume for Frei, but still pales in comparison to most alternative coins. Due to the lack of volume, future exchange support remains unlikely."Thats true, if we dont build up a community, an don't proof that Freicoin is just a money with demurrage, than no Exchange will help us, because nobody wants to exchange something. As always said, for we the most interesting part in Freicoin is what we could all do good with the demurrage. If we do good with it, and are a little bit more welcoming, then perhaps also more people will use Freicoin.Technical Advancements - Demurrage remains the most appealing and the only technical feature for Freicoin. Due to this anti-interest, Freicoin has implemented a system where wealth becomes more equal (in a sense) through the destruction and replenishing of coins. An interesting concept, very few alternative coins seek to replicate this idea.Doogy Doge has it, ok its more inflation then demurrage, but the result seems to be the same... Ok Jorge I give up I said nearly not exactly the same For the protocol: In a way demurrage is a little bit more fair collected then to simply inflate (as long as it is not given out in an fair way, for example as Citizens Dividend or something like that), and has also another psychological impact. I just remember that guy that post in Joes lost coin Topic, that someone is all the time stealing his coins... :roll: Coins Source’s Outlook - Ultimately, this coin remains somewhat shrouded in a mystery. After roughly two years of being on the markets, it has seen success. The major curiousity is the developer, or the lead marketing expert behind the coin, who seems more interested in intellectual talk instead of supporting the coin. Efforts to make this coin are virtually non-existent, and the lack of marketing efforts reflect on Freicoin’s current decline.Thats the best, I cannot hold anymore. I allways wondered who is this mystical "marketing expert" behind Freicoin. Is it Jorge or me :roll:Or is it Joe? No no way or? <-- UPDATE Yea it must be JOE!!! Jo the mystical market expert, now I know! I got you JOE!Community Support: 2 Stars (2 / 5)Hey come one, we have not been that unfriendly, i would give a 4, ok if we count that our Forum is very very hidden on Freicoin.org, I would give a 1, so perhaps 2 is ok...Exchange Presence: 1 Stars (1 / 5)Hmm 3 good exchanges, I would give at least a 2Technical Advancements: 1 Stars (1 / 3)@Maaku come show them some geek stuff and bring out Republicoin (Republicoin in short: decentralized voting system to distribute the demurrage in an fair p2p way)Coins Source’s Score: 2 Stars (2 / 5)Whats that?Frei’s Score | 1.7 /5Not that bad, ok that was one year ago,perhaps we get now 1.2???Hey we could do a lot better then that or? At least 1.20000042 we should manage or?Come on get out on the street, join the Freicoin Alliance and hey stop discussing economy* and start coding!All the good,Arcurus* Discussing economy you can do on places which are devoted to that, like for example the main economy lecture hall called "easy credit lecture hall" in the University Nürnberg,near my home city near the big easy Credit food ball stadium former called Franken Stadium and no, that's no joke! I wish it would be! -
Hi Freicoiners,
recently it happened that my nice topic about the Freipay Gateway was "spammed" up with how we could encourage the development of the Freicoin infrastructure.(dont't take it personal, it happens as it happens
). So I thought, ok better to make an own topic for that,
I think the Freicoin Alliance would be perfect to boost the development so I post this topic here..
Here we go, feel free to post all your ideas about "How we could encourage the development of the Freicoin infrastructure"!
To get an idea what projects we want to boost, feel free to post your most wanted projects.
In the current state this is meant to be a kind of freistorm, so feel free!
Best regards and happy freistorming,
Arcurus
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@fedde much thx for all that you have done for Freicoin!
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By the way: Cointopay the payment gateway you mentioned seems to be really nice
New Geo vision: Cointopay land"Cointopay will launch a kickstarter to create "Cointopay land", a "holy ground" for people that are producing knowledge and innovation and don't want to be ruled by non-intellectual institutionalized technocrats, it is for people who have a worldview that is non-violent, self-existential, self-deterministic and based on libertarian principles. We will not hide it, we are a huge fan of Ron Paul from the United States."
https://cointopay.com/B_Detail.jsp?ID=19
It would be really great to cooperate with them.
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Here is now a more detail project description:
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/post8280.html#p8280
This proposal tries to be more close to the Economy for the Common Good Movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_for_the_Common_Good
Look forward for your thoughts!
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Sounds nice.
For the project payment integration would be a step after the manual Alpha is over.
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Nice Post!
To What can we do?
First of all we need some clear vision for Freicoin.
How can Freicoin look in the Future? What we want to do with the demurrage.
To have a coin with demurrage is not enough. We need to show what good things could be done with the demurrage.
Here is one project called freipay, that wants to
support donations / investments / payments in Freicoin (in this order) . http://freicoinalliance.com/topic/7-freicoin-alliance-will-support-payments-investments-donations-in-freicoin/
This could really boost Freicoin. We should concentrate our effort to bring such a project to the start and show that it is possible.
Then we also would have an answer why somebody should use Freicoin.
Because Payments though using the demurraged coins are up to 5% cheaper then in any other coin at the moment.
This could also balance really good in the long run. The less Freicoin is used the higher this "rabatt" could become though using the demurraged coins. The higher the rabatt the more users the more users the less the rabatt will become and so on.
This could be a good self adjusting thing!
What we need is simple:
First of all the acceptance of the Feicoin Community.
Second the acceptance through Jorge and Mark to be registered for coin matching.
Third a small website to describe how freipay is functioning.
Last but not least we need round about three proxy payers who do the coin handling manually.
In the Alphaphase the coin handling could be done manually. In this phase the proxy payers should make sure, that at least 7 hours per week payments are being processed.
If more payments are coming then we can handle, we could give priority according to the high of the transaction or the publishing date of the transaction.
Of course donations before investments before payments.
All the good,
Arcurus
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Thanx Fedde!
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I need to understand how a company would even bother with such a system considering so few people hold FRC even fewer mine it.
Should our work not be first to build a mining base and to develop more infrastructure (bootstrapping) so the use of the coin is much easier.
...
What Freicoin needs is not more miners what Freicoin needs is a clear vision.
Just having a coin that demurrages away is not enogh.
We need a vision that shows why Freicoin is useful.in the longer run.
For that a project that uses the demurraged coins to make Freicoin payments 10% or 50% cheaper (at least in the initial phase) is a clear vision why someone should pay / invest / or donate through using Freicoin.
The securing of the coin is another problem. How to solve that I described already in the Freicoin Forum*.
But that problem is second, because if we have no good vision for Freicoin, with or without miners, nobody will use Freicoin.
* For example through supporting Freicoin miners with donation matching, or even better switching to proof of donation, or proof of stake. But securing the blockchan is another topic that we should discuss separately.
And no, mining will not help much anymore to spread the coin,that was in the pre asic phase..
All the good,
Arcurus
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So what would be a good starting point then for your idea Arcurus?
1. We should set a project up here and then get it registered on Freicoin Foundation page.
We will need to have a tight clear objective for this though and some timeline to achieve goals. In the past there have been a lot of ideas and little or no follow through on them. Personally willing to invest time and FRC into this project if we have a solid plan and timeline and the team to complete it.
As for "donations" going to the project and matching I am not too concerned necessarily with that as we can probably fund everything we do internally. At this point with so little time left massive amounts of Foundation coins will be destroyed.
I think it is important that the code for that be worked on by a team of concerned stakeholders and vetted and checked by the developers.
Here is the plan:
In the beginning we need not code anything, we just can do everything by hand.
We should keep it very simple in the beginning.
If it functions well, then we can automate stuff.
I will later on describe in detail how we could start very easily in an manual way.
What we need to do?
First most important we just must make sure we get the acceptance from the Freicoin Foundation./ the Freicoin Community, or more direct said Jitmon and Maaku.
So what to do:
As soon as I find some time (this week) I will setup a small freipay site with more details over the payment project,
The next step would then be do post in the Freicoin Forum, so that everyone can easily give feedback..
After that, we register this payment project on the Freicoin web,to apply for coin matching.
The critical point here is, that we get the acceptance for the coin matching.
After that we can just start to process the payments manually.
Later on if it functions we could automate it, or make a cooperation with payment providers.
I will take care of describing the project and setting up the base website with the information.
What we need is one at least two or three people who could take care of processing the payments manually in the beginning this should be enough.
I don't expect 1000 of payments in the start.
All the good, Arcurus.
P.s.: Can some admin look into it why I don't get a mail when a response is posted?
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,,, not necessarily as long as the Freicoin Alliance, or another project fulfills the mission statement of the Freicoin Foundation;
From: https://foundation.freicoin.org/#/:
"The Freicoin Foundation seeks to create a world where commonplace non-usurious complementary currencies inspired by the works of Silvio Gesell are brought into being through economic development, charitable action, and the support of global commons and which engender perpetual prosperity through sustainable development.
The Freicoin Foundation will issue 80% of the total initial Freicoins through several issuance mechanisms that are safe from potential corruption from the Foundation management team itself.
One of those mechanisms is to match Freicoin donations to non-profit organizations and other projects listed on this site. The foundation will periodically give away some freicoin to those organizations in proportion to how much they have received in donations through this site. Help decide how the Foundation's funds are going to be used by donating to your preferred non-profit organizations and projects on the donations section. The foundation will increase the amount of FRC you donate by 10%.
If you're a non-profit organization or part of a project that fits the goals of the Freicoin Foundation (described in the first paragraph of this page), register in this site and list your organization on the donations section. Start receiving Freicoin donations as well as newly issued Freicoins."
"Bootstrapping" - Rebooting Freicoin
in Running Projects
Posted
Here are my thoughts to Fabrizios questions:
"Should there a relaunch with clean ledger, or rebranding using the existing Freicoin ledger?"
Why? In worst case we have to destroy the foundation coins.
We should more work towards a state where the Freicoin Foundation must not hold any coins anymore.
Here is a list of projects how we could evolve to that:
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/issuing-mechanisms-current-state-of-development-t801.html
And here is a proposal to rebulcion (in short decentralized voting on how to issue demurraged Freicoins):
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/republicoin-design-discussion-t738.html
This could evolve the current Freicoin Foundation to an fully decentralized "Foundation".
To the other questions.
Currently I vote for only changing Freicoin as few as possible.
What we really need to do is to bring the coin issuing to function, for that we do not need to change the current Freicoin code.
In the longer run this coin issuing should evolve to something like rebulicoin, so that we don't need any Foundation anymore that issues the coins.
If an decentralized and fair issuing is function we should issue at least 50% or better 100%* of the demurraged coins with these issuing mechanism.
For the Freicoin protocol / client itself, we should be very careful to change it.
Currently I see there mainly three thinks which should be changed in the longer run:
First of all, we should start to make the issuing of the Foundation Freicoins p2p
Second, it would be nice that the default client supports small messages, so that it is easy to send them (this messages could be used for voting for coin matching and so on).
Third we need to think about how we want to secure the coin in the future.
Proof of work is a nice thing, but burns a lot of energy and money.
We will also be easy attack able as long as our coin is not the main coin in the currently used pow algorithm. Merge mining will also not solve that. What in the end counts is the bock reward. Of course Merge mining could help a to make the coin less attack able and the block generation time more stable, but the real security is the cost of abandon an created block (value of transaction fees + newly generated coins in this block).
With POW it is also very difficult to decentralize the foundation coin matching with another voting then POW itself. Because POW miners could always block all other voting transactions.
Currently I suggest in the long run to go to something like proof of fee /donation - In short the chain with the most paid fees wins, or some kind of proof of stake.
In a hybrid phase POW created coins could also count as a paid fee, as time comes POW could be reduced.
And of course Proof of stake could be an alternative, but poof of stake is a little bit tricky in an demurrage currency like Freicoin.
I think what is needed next is to outline a clear vision in which direction we want to develop with Freicoin.
All the good,
Arcurus