3 more weeks until initial issuance is complete

[Skaro 129]

" If a fully p2p issuance mechanism alternative to mining is found, a mechanism (for example, proof-of-stake voting) could be established to determine how much goes to security (miners) and how much to the alternative."

[Arcurus 331]

24 minutes ago, Skaro said:

" If a fully p2p issuance mechanism alternative to mining is found, a mechanism (for example, proof-of-stake voting) could be established to determine how much goes to security (miners) and how much to the alternative."

yes. I m all in for a combination of proof of stake and proof of member in the long run. 

proof of stake = one coin one vote

proof of member = one active verified member = one vote

With both in place there would be a balance between people who invested their resources and people that invest their life.

[Rik8119 242]

So it would be stakeholders "against" users. Although it is an very interesting idea (in times when there are few users, stakeholders get more and when there are many users the users get more), i see that this is complicated to implement when we don't even get the few lines of code out of the devs to make freicoin sustainable..

Imho even 20% of demurragecoins for miners is very generous. But as this was the starting point it is much better than what we have now..

And if we implement it then Solidar becomes obsolete, because this is why i started the project: establish a sustainable redistribution system. That would free a lot of resources on my side, and i could finish the coinomi wallet fork including Freicoin or use my servers to run more FRC nodes. But it all depends on Freicoin as a sustainable redistribution system that - as i see it - all of us want.

@fedde what is the last state for the communication to maaku, Can you maybe give us an update?

Thanks a lot.

[Arcurus 331]

I guess the best way to reach fedde is in the chatroom: https://chat.freicoin.info/channel/Freicoin

6 hours ago, Rik8119 said:

20% of demurragecoins for miners is very generous.

I fully agree with that, we should handle it like dash to clearly communicate that this number is not set in stone but depends on how much security is needed and should be changed based on research. Research papers like ALGORAND: The Efficient and Democratic Ledger from Turing award winner Silvio Micali seems very promising way to secure blockchains in the future. 

Proof of sake and proof of members could be implemented in a second or third layer like dash does it with masternodes. Through a soft fork some part of the mining reward could be distributed for other projects like the citizen dividend project, or to support freinodes. Using a second freinode layer would also allow to have lot more security and nearly instant transaction verification.  If the second layer fails the fallback would still be the first layer. I someone want to join in formalising it feel very welcome i would love to outline the details.

¨so it would be stakeholders "against" users. A¨

I don't see it as an against. My plan would be to make the users more and more to stakeholders...

First moving from:

First Layer: Proof of work --> Second layer: Freinode proof of stake (freinode based) ---> Third layer citizens layer/ proof of stake plus proof of member

 

First layer - Blockchain:

Proof of work like now

 

Second layer - Freinodes:

We could do it like dash:  For example every Freinode requires 10.000 Freicoins. With that we could have at max 10.000 Freinodes. I think its good to have here not more then 10.000 possible voters and keep the numbers low in the second layer, so that it is easy to come so an consens. 

Technically we could use the current dash masternode consensus, or ALGORAND, or the Ripple consensus or a simple hierarchical model.

The second layer includes allready instant transactions, securing the blockchain a budget system,  protocol votes / government and incentives for running freinodes.

Once the first layer is running and tested it could be enforced on the first layer without the need to change the first layer. 

This all sounds lot to do? In away not, because the code already is out there in dash.

 

Third layer - Member / Users:

Technically we could use something like steemit or dash evolution for the user interface.

For example: One coin would equal one vote. All the users together would equal the votes of the stakeholders. 

In the long run we could incentivise users more and more to become stakeholders, so that there is no gap between users and stakeholders.

 

This could look like this:

As welcoming to the Freination project you get up to 1000 Freicoins*.

For each month you engage** to build up a free nation you get up to another 300 Freicoins (10 per day)*.

For each 100 Freicoins* you have on your Account you get 1 extra Freicoin per day up to 20 Freicoins per day*   (equals 365% interest per year - dmurrage)

For each 1000 Freicoins* you have on your Account you get 1 extra Freicoin per day up to 20 Freicoins per day* (equals 36,5% interest per year - demurrage).

 

* The exact amount depends on the current funds of the Freination project and the current member count (demuraged coins - other use case) / active members 

** Engaging can be simple tasks the people of the Freination project decide, like blogging about your engagements. Just be creative and surprise your fellow people, no goal is too big to reach!

*** The Freination project is an community driven project in cooperation with the Freicoin Alliance

 

The first interest would encourage to hold 2000 Freicoins or in other words 200 days worth of citizen dividend. 

The second interest would encourage to hold 20000 Freicoins or in other words 2000 days worth of citizen dividend. 

 

This would have following effects:

- it would give incentives to hold Freicoins

- It would guarantee a fair distribution of freicoins in the long run

- It would incentive to borrow Freicoins to newcomers.

[Skaro 129]

Arcurus and Rik,

Have you looked at what's here:

https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/tree/freicoin-0.14?files=1

 

 

[fedde 311]

Arc, can you edit your link, Access to chatroom is on https://chat.freicoin.info/channel/Freicoin witch is secure .

[fedde 311]

and no life from @Mark Friedenbach yet. 

[Skaro 129]

There is some code there for Freicoin 0.14. Perhaps we could summarize what changes this would make to Freicoin, and what needs to be done from their toward these ideas (distributing the demurrage, proof of stake and member etc)

[Rik8119 242]

@Skaro i looked at it and as far as i can tell from the chat on the forum it is freicoin ported to bitcoin version 0.14 or am i wrong here?

@Arcurus Best way would be to make a bounty to integrate all those things for freicoin. Although we all seem to have some coding ability @fedde is doing a great job with the exchange and is out of this.

And with a bounty and a pull request this just has to be confirmed by @Mark Friedenbach to be integrated.

[Skaro 129]

@Rik8119, the way I see it, the main thing to make it start happening, is  someone starting to do it, and you are the only one qualified. I move to nominate Rik to join the developement team! We can do that as a community, no? Someone to second the motion?

[Arcurus 331]

37 minutes ago, Skaro said:

There is some code there for Freicoin 0.14. Perhaps we could summarize what changes this would make to Freicoin, and what needs to be done from their toward these ideas (distributing the demurrage, proof of stake and member etc)

The changes outlined above do not necessarily need to change the layer one code / current Freicoin client. 

All could be implemented in a second or third layer. The old node would simply follow the most mining power, which follows the economic majority. All outlined above for the second layer is already implemented in dash we ¨just¨ have to copy it and adapt it for Freicoin and most important test it. 

The current Freicoin client could just run as layer 1. As layer two we could use a full independent client. Could be a copy of based on the current Freicoin client, or a total new implementation like for example based on bcoin. Bcoin is a Bitcoin full node.js java script implementation of Bitcoin and used by some big Bitcoin companies like purse. The Bcoin client is also used for dash evolution.

I guess the next step would be to look into the dash code and see what is to do to adapt it for Freicoin, and outlining which changes we want to have compared to it and if we want to go into this direction. 

Proof of member could then be based on layer 2. Here we could base on dash evolution code once ready, or use the steemit code (it has delegated proof of stake, interest, decentralised exchange, user accounts already) or create a full own implementation.

 

For example based on dash masternodes / in our case freinodes could look like this:

- Each freinode requires 10.000 Freicoins.

- Each freinode can register at max = max(100, 2 * Members / masternodes) members.

- some part lets say 20% of the demurrage is given out to verified members

- member lists can be voted in out similar to other votes in masternode votes 

- to reduce abuse a security could be required per registered member. 

 

Here an example how it could be implemented without basing it on masternodes:

(both have their pros and cons)

 

 

It would also help to get in contact with maaku or jitmon, so that we know what their opinion is and what their plan is with Freicoin Foundation.

 

 

[Arcurus 331]

7 minutes ago, Skaro said:

@Rik8119, the way I see it, the main thing to make it start happening, is  someone starting to do it, and you are the only one qualified. I move to nominate Rik to join the developement team! We can do that as a community, no? Someone to second the motion?

I would love to see Rik joining the Freicoin development!

In the past one of our biggest problem was and still is the communication with the main developers / maaku / jitmon since they started to be fully engaged with Bitcoin core development.  In away it's good, because they got there ton of experience, on the other way it's bad, because they don't seem to have time or enough time with Freicoin.

Even simple things like matching the funds got stuck.

Therefore it would be great to know who much they want to be committed to Freicoin and if they are willing to help to design and or implement a decentralized coin distribution.

From our community site I guess we could help them more with testing things, here we would need cear instructions or at least a clear way how to communicate.

I for my part will now look more into how the second layer is exactly programmed in dash, at this moment it sound for me the most promising option we have for Freicoin.

Other options would be to use the steemit plattform as base, or design a fully independent algorithm like outlined here:

I think most important is to agree on what we as Freicoin community want.

Can we agree, that we want to have other coin distributions then mining?

Are we ready to go into a Proof of Stake / Proof of Member direction. If so do we want to implement it as a second / third layer or directly?

What do we do with the Freicoin Foundation if the funds still continue to be not distributed?

How can we come into contact with maaku and jitmon and find out what their opinion is and if they are ready to engage and if yes in what way?

[Arcurus 331]

For my part, what i mainly need right now to proceed is someone to discuss the details of the different options pro / con.

At best it would be great to have also maaku and jitmon to be engaged in this.

 

[Arcurus 331]

The proposal outlined linked below could be implemented in three steps:

First adding POS voting

Second adding project voting

Third adding member voting

This proposal as outlined now would require a hardfork. I can look into it if we could implement it also without.

The frei node proposal based on dash master nodes could be implemented in a second layer.

The dash proposal would also allow all the tools dash has for voting etc.

Because dash is based on bitcoin same like Freicoin it could be relatively easy to adapt.

 

Another option would be to use steemit delegated proof of work as second layer.

It would offer more functions compared to dash, like delegation of vote, decentralized exchanges, named accounts etc, but is also more complex than daeh masternodes. Up to now i would see it more as a third layer candidate. 

[Arcurus 331]

1 hour ago, Rik8119 said:

 

@Arcurus Best way would be to make a bounty to integrate all those things for freicoin. Although we all seem to have some coding ability @fedde is doing a great job with the exchange and is out of this.

And with a bounty and a pull request this just has to be confirmed by @Mark Friedenbach to be integrated.

I guess adopting Proof of stake voting for Freicoin is beyond what a bouty can provide and needs long term commitment.

¨just has to be confirmed by¨

I guess that's not that easy to get, in the past maaku was one of the most advocate for mining, maybe that changed now with all what is going on currently in Bitcoin with miner centralisation and the example of proof of stake based coins like daesh, soon ethereum, bitshares, steemit etc. 

I guess what maaku is worried most about is the replay attack possibility by proof of stake, but as outlined in my proposal this could be much reduced through using a proof of work proof of stake combination. Also daesh masternodes seem to solve that elegantly by combining it with proof of work and so or so if 80% of the master nodes agree on something there is no replay possible anymore....

 

Yes proof of stake is more complex to implement right then proof of work, but there are tons of benefits that proof of stake has.

 

 

[Arcurus 331]

By the way, it's great to have you all engaged!

[Skaro 129]

"Can we agree, that we want to have other coin distributions then mining"

YES! Everybody here did agree to having methods of coin distribution other than JUST mining.

 

[Skaro 129]

"Are we ready to go into a Proof of Stake / Proof of Member direction. If so do we want to implement it as a second / third layer or directly?"

I didn't see a clear decision on this. I think people were asking for developers input. Perhaps, to keep things together, we can quote this comment and say Yes/No and a brief comment.

Me: Yes.

As I see, a change in this direction is within the original idea of Freicoin. 

I think it's implementation is a matter of  resources. So a layered implementation would probably be easier.

i think SegWit is sort of Proof of Stake, no? So this is implemented in Freicoin .14? Or am I completely full of shit. 

Is merge mining then part of this too?

[Skaro 129]

"How can we come into contact with maaku and jitmon and find out what their opinion is and if they are ready to engage and if yes in what way?"

perhaps a more buisiness like structure could help. Since people are busy, we have prescheduled meetings, with an agenda distributed in advance. etc. 

 

[Arcurus 331]

2 hours ago, Skaro said:

i think SegWit is sort of Proof of Stake, no? So this is implemented in Freicoin .14? Or am I completely full of shit. 

Sorry to say but I fear, you are completely full of shit

SegWit is just another way of storing signature data in an extended block.

It has nothing to do with proof of stake. 

Bitcoin is far too conservative to implement something like proof of stake at this moment and i can understand, never change a running system. Proof of stake is far more complicated to implement right. Right now bitcoin has also no big reason to implement it (other than burning billions of dollars and beeing attacked by a hostile miner cartell without having the stakeholders anything to say then dumping their coins) . Let other coins first proof it some years.

Its also a kind of ideology problem. The initial Bitcoiners came all from mining, that made Bitcoin what it is, now are all used to the mantra that the only way of securing a blockchain is purely mining. Hard to change that. Not to mention how difficult it is to have simple block size increase to happen, i guess proof of stake will not even happen if a proof of stake currency will overtake Bitcoin. The good thing is, that this proofs how resistant Bitcoin is to changes. 

 

As far as Im concerned merge mining is not part of it.

I currently see not much use for merge mining with a centralized power structure like the current Bitcoin mining.

In the short term we should consider to switch to a freicoin unique mining alg. At least then we are not that easy to attack or be dumped by from external miners.

In the long run i would more and more move towards proof of stake, or adapt a second master node layer.

For implementing, both solutions outlined above could be implemented in different steps.

[Arcurus 331]

2 hours ago, Skaro said:

perhaps a more buisiness like structure could help. Since people are busy, we have prescheduled meetings, with an agenda distributed in advance. etc. 

we tried that. Mainly the time zones have been the biggest problem.... for some weeks it was going well.... 

[Skaro 129]

Freicoin unique algorithm?

[Skaro 129]

Rather, also, what are long term and short priorities? Updated wallets and p2pool must be on your list. 

[Arcurus 331]

1 minute ago, Skaro said:

Freicoin unique algorithm?

yes, just change something so that current asics cannot mine it.

[Arcurus 331]

 

15 hours ago, Skaro said:

Rather, also, what are long term and short priorities? Updated wallets and p2pool must be on your list. 

For me most important is to start with what makes Freicoin unique, thats alternative issuing methods like the giveaway.

In short term we could use our own coins to make the issuing, in the long run we should use some part of the demurrage.

The easiest way to implement that would be to make a Freicoin Soft Fork that gives some part of the block reward to a hardcoded address.

It would be enough if the main Freicoin nodes / currently mainly the two exchanges we have would enforce the softwork.

 

The bad thing is, that this would introduce again a central point of failure like the current foundation. The good thing is that it is easy to implement, just use the code for the foundation again...

The second possibility would be to jump at once to partly proof of stake or a second masternode layer. This is far far more complicated to implement, but would be decentralized.

 

Having a p2p pool is nice to have, but i see no urgency in it. If you want have decentralized mining, better switch the mining alg and give subsidies directly to people to mine.

 

Here my suggestion:

Short term:

- Get started with the Freicoin giveaway

- Restructuring Freiexchange as easy to use wallet (sending coins internally per name or per address) 

- Moving the Alliance Funds to somebody who wants to take care of it. I would nominate Skaro or Rik.

- having updated Freicoin website

 

Mid term:

- having a simple Freicoin web store to sell things like chocolate

- Having updated Freicoin clients

- Outlining a clear concept for decentralising the coin issuing and moving towards proof of stake / proof of member

- Switching to a Freicoin unique mining ALG

- solving what is to be done with the current Foundation coins

- considering a soft fork to issue some part of the demurrage in other ways

 

Long term:

- switch to pow pos combination or implement second masternode layer

- implement budget / voting structure 

 

Long long term:

- implement proof of member