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what exactly is the benefit of having a refight?

In the end what counts is the block where the transaction is included.

who pays the demurrage is the same question who pays the transaction fee. That should be like in Bitcoin totally up to the agreement between sender and receiver.

In Bitcoin either of them or none of them can pay the fee if they want, so why not in Freicoin? 

 

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I started today to work on porting Solidar to version 0.14. I will start with the coin/ demurrage part first, so it can be ported to FRC with some effort..

The serialize error is fixed in my version so it compiles and runs ok, both freicoind and freicoin-qt now. Me and skaro have tested it and it transmits, recives coins ok, calulate demurrage etc etc.

Wow

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On 07/23/2017 at 2:50 PM, Arcurus said:

what exactly is the benefit of having a refight?

In the end what counts is the block where the transaction is included.

who pays the demurrage is the same question who pays the transaction fee. That should be like in Bitcoin totally up to the agreement between sender and receiver.

In Bitcoin either of them or none of them can pay the fee if they want, so why not in Freicoin? 

 

Its a necessity. Think of it this way: you can lock a transaction for a certain time lets say 50k blocks (a year). After that it is included into a block. Since there is no information in the transaction when it was send, no demurrwge can be calculated.. And the whole demurrage idea is useless

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12 hours ago, Rik8119 said:

ts a necessity. Think of it this way: you can lock a transaction for a certain time lets say 50k blocks (a year). After that it is included into a block. Since there is no information in the transaction when it was send, no demurrwge can be calculated.. And the whole demurrage idea is useless

still i dont think that it is a necessity. take your example above. if the transaction is included in a year, it must so or so must pay the demurrage for this whole year on top of it.

so what is the benefit to have information when the transaction was sent? if the sender did not pay the demurrage in the original transaction the receiver could pay it (through child transaction pays for parent transaction) if he wants the transaction to be included. so where is the need to have a separate ref height other then when the transaction was included in the block? actually it does not matter if the sender or the receiver pays the demurrage, as long as the demurrage is paid once the transaction is included in a block.

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The reason this coin has completely failed compared to competitors is the demurrage.

No one wants to invest in a coin that loses 5% value yearly.

To get this coin going, and its not hard and very possible we need new design, new logo, PoS of 5% instead, exchange listings.

We can easily go 100x current value to 5 mil marketcap and would still not be a big coin....

Think about it, marketing should include that we are a very old and stable coin with BITCOIN CORE DEVELOPERS. Our OWN super good looking exchange (good job there) Piece of cake come on guys.

Also, the foundation can not own 80%, complete or partial burn needed and some bounties for developers.

Done right we can hit 50 mil marketcap, thats just crazy profit.

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36 minutes ago, Adilado said:

Done right we can hit 50 mil marketcap, thats just crazy profit.

if you want crazy profit, better invest in Filecoin ipo.

That said, yes Freicoin price can increase, but that's not the main point, the point is creating an currency based on the economic theory of Silvio Gesell / a money that is in circulation.

What you mean with 5% POS?

As said the foundation will soon be gone as it looks now...

 

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8 minutes ago, Arcurus said:

if you want crazy profit, better invest in Filecoin ipo.

That said, yes Freicoin price can increase, but that's not the main point, the point is creating an currency based on the economic theory of Silvio Gesell / a money that is in circulation.

What you mean with 5% POS?

As said the foundation will soon be gone as it looks now...

 

Foundation gone, is that people or the coins?

PoS = Proof of Stake (Keeping wallet open, earning interest yearly), I believe this coin needs to reward holders, not the opposite.

When it comes to the point, has it not been discussed to remove demurrage? It kind of has to go for this coin to fly.

And why would we not want that?

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as it looks now the foundation coins will be most likely redistributed through mining. but im not a foundation member, so better ask @jtimon

if the people currently running the foundation will stay with Freicoin only they can answer, so also here better ask @jtimon

If you want to invest in Freicoin i would wait if i where you until its clear what the decision of the foundation will be.

except you want to take the bet that the foundation decision will increase the price...

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with pos, i for my part see the future of crypto in at least partial POS how this can be implemented i outlined here in the forum. but i cannot make a decision on behalf of the Freicoin community. 

removing demurrage in Freicoin is like increasing the coin supply in Bitcoin...

the whole point of Freicoin is in keeping the money in circulation.

Yes this could also be done through for example 5% inflation, but this would lead to other problems....

think it that way, a coin that has a stable coin supply will at least trading wiese much better than a coin with 5% inflation...

for investors i would only recommend to invest if they understand what Freicoin is about.... then they may be ready to pay the demurrage as the current investors do....

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I hope they will read my earlier post and consider.
This will seriously make people interested in this coin.

- Change from demurrage to proof of stake. (Absolutely no one wants to pay 5% of their coins anually, reward holders instead)

- Marketing (Old stable coin, bitcoin core developers, own great looking exchange, more future plans)

- Burn 50% of foundations coins, keep 25%, 25% for bounties (translations, developement) This will greatly increase trust.

- New modern website and update logo (the F logo looks great, just not on a fred flintstone coin)

- Exchange listings

 

This way we go to 5mil marketcap for starters, I dont know about you but I am not a millionaire yet but i would not mind becoming one.
Crypto craze will step up even more 2018 so it shoud be a piece of cake to do. This old and known coin will even get coverage by the big websites for free just for doing this.

 

If interesting I would definately be up for making a good looking website and logo to fit it.

Just for reference, something similar perhaps.
https://nimiq.com/
http://minereum.com/

 

 
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demurrage and proof of stake have nothing to do with each other.

you mean move from demurrage to inflation and from POW to POS....

i guess the foundation will be totally removed... but still we have the Freicoin Alliance with some donated coins...

the Freicoin logo is the Freicoin bird as shown in Freicoin qt.

@fedde redesigned the logo, but the client and website is not updated.

 

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I might have got it wrong, but.

If i have 100 coins, I dont want it to be 95 after one year but 105 (If staking).
Otherwise I am telling you in the view of a cryptocurrency investor that no one will be interested.

And i believe that the market would value a PoW/PoS combo.

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Just now, Adilado said:

I might have got it wrong, but.

If i have 100 coins, I dont want it to be 95 after one year but 105 (If staking).
Otherwise I am telling you in the view of a cryptocurrency investor that no one will be interested.

what do you prefer having 105 coins worth 100 dollar after one year or having 95 coins worth 200 dollar?

many investors / traders look only on the graph, there having a limited coin supply looks better...

technical wise, yes inflation may be easier to implement, but I guess that decision is done...

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And the example of high value because of demurrage, how did that work out so far? Really not so good if you ask me.

Biggest problem here is that coins go to foundation, people dont accept that since developers that hold almost all coins is a risk of coin dumping.

This is the way it works in crypto, if 5% were permanently burned that would be OK (but not good), this way is not OK.

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1 hour ago, Adilado said:

And the example of high value because of demurrage, how did that work out so far? Really not so good if you ask me.

Biggest problem here is that coins go to foundation, people dont accept that since developers that hold almost all coins is a risk of coin dumping.

This is the way it works in crypto, if 5% were permanently burned that would be OK (but not good), this way is not OK.

Please take no offense but the world is running directly into a third world war because people don't realize what is wrong with our money system. To redesign Freicoin in that way means robbing it from all what makes it special and successful in the first place. But i see your point. As nobody is interested in how to make money better but just how to make money, Freicoin is designed badly.

For me the idea behind it was that we could create a currency that attracts everyday people and not the big whales. Because if the everyday people profit the big whales follows, because in the end they have to use what people accept as money and not shells.

Now it gets clearer that cryptocurrencies are very forward and that they need to attract big investors to be "successful". Blockchain currencies are still too complicated for everyday people to understand or use. Additionally they seem to be afraid to use them. But for me there is no other way but to bring cryptocurrencies to the people (and so i did Solidar a Freicoin fork that uses the demurrage as basicincome).

Please feel free to bring more ideas to the table maybe we can find some compromise.

Rik

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I feel this coin is in good hands, its not created out of thin air. Lets make it great together. Its good to keep the original philosophy if we can just make it profitable and interesting for investors.

 

Just a crazy idea:

Demurrage is used to buy other crypto tokens that the owner of the account get in his own freicoin wallet. The wallet for example support Ethereum tokens and they can be stored there. This would give the freicoin holder other valuable coins while the freicoin coins get burnt, freicoin supply decrease over time. Win win. 

And people would love it.

OR as we have the exchange already, they just get small amount of BTC for holding freicoin. If the freicoin holder wants to they can just buy more freicoin.

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That would be something for the @Mark Friedenbach and @jtimon as they handle the foundations funds. If they could use those coins on @fedde 's exchange with BTC and what other coins will come and every address has a time/FRC ratio (like POS) that will pay you those tokens that would be something very special and of course doable, if we find no other usage for the foundation coins!

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Well anyway, Freicoin without demurrage is not Freicoin. Without demurrage, it just becomes a crappy 2014 clone of Bitcoin. You could POS or change the hash protocol, but there is no originality there. How many clones from 2014 are significant today? The top 20 list of crypto-currencies now are 50% coins in ICO (ie not even existing),Ethereum, and Ethereum copies which are at best multi-million dollar templates for Azure. Meanwhile we have a bunch of mouth frothing 'investors' creating self fulfilling prophecies from technical 'analysis' while everything is simply correlating to BTC. What, am I the only one that has ever made and LOST money on the stock exchange? You can't remember the downside?

Like the guy in that excellent Facebook post copied above said, when people really start using crypto currencies for buying things (as opposed to 'investing') a measure against inflation-deflation-speculation-hoarding will be very attractive. Also, it is a real solution that has been repeatedly applied in the past; ie there is a need. Freicoin is unique in this. It is regarded and listed in all books as innovative for demurrage. What is a currency 'investor' anyway? That term doesn't even exist. It's just mouth frothing lunacy piggy backing on Bitcoin developer's hard work. And there are more than enough bigger as#%les in the finance world that will eat them up.

The Foundation simply didn't work. It was supposed to be dissolved by having distributed all its funds by now. And yes, It should go, in a transparent verifiable, and fair way.

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7 hours ago, Skaro said:

Well anyway, Freicoin without demurrage is not Freicoin. Without demurrage, it just becomes a crappy 2014 clone of Bitcoin. You could POS or change the hash protocol, but there is no originality there. How many clones from 2014 are significant today? The top 20 list of crypto-currencies now are 50% coins in ICO (ie not even existing),Ethereum, and Ethereum copies which are at best multi-million dollar templates for Azure. Meanwhile we have a bunch of mouth frothing 'investors' creating self fulfilling prophecies from technical 'analysis' while everything is simply correlating to BTC. What, am I the only one that has ever made and LOST money on the stock exchange? You can't remember the downside?

Like the guy in that excellent Facebook post copied above said, when people really start using crypto currencies for buying things (as opposed to 'investing') a measure against inflation-deflation-speculation-hoarding will be very attractive. Also, it is a real solution that has been repeatedly applied in the past; ie there is a need. Freicoin is unique in this. It is regarded and listed in all books as innovative for demurrage. What is a currency 'investor' anyway? That term doesn't even exist. It's just mouth frothing lunacy piggy backing on Bitcoin developer's hard work. And there are more than enough bigger as#%les in the finance world that will eat them up.

The Foundation simply didn't work. It was supposed to be dissolved by having distributed all its funds by now. And yes, It should go, in a transparent verifiable, and fair way.

Demurrage can stay, but the coins can not go to foundation. Investors dont accept it. As i mentioned above would be a good solution. Owning freicoin gets you other coins on freiexchange and then the most of the demurraged frei get burnt. (less frei in circulation, higher price and happy investors)

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Or how about locking foundation coins and draw a 5% demurrage only from there while implementing 2% pos on non  foundation coins.

If there was a smart contract of some kind locking the 80% in a transparent way, some kind of time lock and demurrage drawn from there.

It would drastically reduce the circulating supply and be very good for the price.

Then a relaunch ofcourse, marketing.

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- to the foundation, as said, as it looks now it will be completely dissolved, so no demurrage or coins will go or hold by the foundation.

- it looks like the coins from the foundation will come in circulation sooner or later, at least that is what up to now most of the community voted for, so that Freicoin will have 100 Million coins total in circulation as planned.

- my suggestion is to add a softfork, that somepart of the demurrage could be used for other projects, for example development, or negative trading fees on Freiexchange.

If done right users will hold some Freicoins and other assets that give stable value to Freicoin.

later Freiexchange can be decentralized.

 

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I vote for less coins.

1. Keep foundation coins locked up, it does not have to be called "foundation", or even exist a foundation, just keep them there and take demurrage from there, use the coins from demurrage to develop the project. The developers can even keep say 10% from the beginning for development and bounty purposes, that is completely normal.

2. Implement a transaction fee that gets burnt, this way people that move freicoin around will participate in the demurrage anyways.

As the current system works with demurrage from all holders/investors this will not grow.

And to release 70 million new coins into circulation will NOT help the price, do you want to see Freicoin at 1 satoshi?

We need to be able to get investors in by promising a good return of investment, no one will come if 5% of their coins are deducted every year and at the same time release so many new coins on the market, people will just assume that is theft.

A decreasing total supply without investors own funds decreasing would be very good for the price and could be a sales argument for us.

 

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Just to add a sidenote here.

Foundation does not recive any more funds, so they are locked there for now.

Only thing that makes it slowly move from foundation addresses to circluating coins (usable coins trough minings) is the demurrage, so already the foundation coins supply about 72% of the demurrage while the rest is from user addresses. Blocks are now @95.36743164 and it will stay that way forever as it's the demurrage of the 100mill coins. 

 

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