@Adilado have you also interest to support Freicoin in the longer run other than just investing?

On 7/23/2017 at 10:42 AM, Skaro said:

 The method of selection you proposed would probably just transfer most of the money to the mining pool(s).

? --> to clarify, i propose to bring the foundation coins in circulation as block reward and combine it with a softfork that makes sure that some part of the block reward is used for Freicoin related projects.  The softfork is enough if enforced by the main Freicoin economic nodes.

For example, create time locked transactions that spent (100% as fee) of the foundation coins over a three year period with unlocking one transaction every 10 minutes.

 

Then add a softfort:

the main economic Freicoin nodes enforce that a certain part of the block reward is send to a specific address if less then 100.000 coins are on the address.

if we don't empty the address than at max 100.000 coins will hang on it. 

In the future we could implement a smarter distribution mechanism like outlined in other posts.

 

@Adilado welcome to Freicoin.

What brought you to Freicoin? Have you read what Freicoin is about or do you just search for coins to invest in?

Currntly in Freicoin the situation is this:

the core developer of Freicoin became core developers of Bitcoin, since then they are super busy.

Freicoin 0.9 is ready to be used thx to @fedde, but is still under testing.

@Rik8119 wants to port Freicoin code to 0.14

 

Currently there is a discussion how we proceed with the Freicoin Foundation that holds 80% of the coins.

It looks like that the foundation coins will be brought into circulation through mining.

We are thinking about adding a soft fork, that allows using some part of the redistributed coins for Freicoin related projects.

But this is not set in stone yet.

 

@fedde is mainly working on bringing more currencies to Freiexchange.

He also planned to setup a web wallet so that Freicoin will be easy to use.

 

@Adilado thx for your interest, i hope i could answer your questions.

 

12 hours ago, Rik8119 said:

ts a necessity. Think of it this way: you can lock a transaction for a certain time lets say 50k blocks (a year). After that it is included into a block. Since there is no information in the transaction when it was send, no demurrwge can be calculated.. And the whole demurrage idea is useless

still i dont think that it is a necessity. take your example above. if the transaction is included in a year, it must so or so must pay the demurrage for this whole year on top of it.

so what is the benefit to have information when the transaction was sent? if the sender did not pay the demurrage in the original transaction the receiver could pay it (through child transaction pays for parent transaction) if he wants the transaction to be included. so where is the need to have a separate ref height other then when the transaction was included in the block? actually it does not matter if the sender or the receiver pays the demurrage, as long as the demurrage is paid once the transaction is included in a block.

what exactly is the benefit of having a refight?

In the end what counts is the block where the transaction is included.

who pays the demurrage is the same question who pays the transaction fee. That should be like in Bitcoin totally up to the agreement between sender and receiver.

In Bitcoin either of them or none of them can pay the fee if they want, so why not in Freicoin? 

 

hi rik, if you solidar update to 0.14 please consider that most likely we dont need to have a refhight in the transaction.

this could simplify the code a lot.

 

i thought about it.

i would go along with option two if we combine it with a softfork, that allows to redistribute some part of the block reward other than mining.

In away it would be enough if the main Freicoin clients (currently this are mainly feddes nodes (exchange / mining pool)) runs this softfork, so we could change it easily without the need to change all nodes if we want to update the redistribution mechanism. 

the softfork could be that easy like this:

the main Freicoin nodes enforce that a certain part of the block reward is send to a specific address if less then 100.000 coins are on the address.

if we don't empty the address than at max 100.000 coins will hang on it. 

In the future we could implement a smarter distribution mechanism like outlined in other posts.

On 7/20/2017 at 0:26 PM, Rik8119 said:

maybe its just me but i invested my time and money because i wanted to support demurrage used for common good. Usiing the funds to donate to social projects fulfilled that purpose. Supporting mining isnt what i had in mind, though it was in the code from the beginning.

+1 for me just having demurrage is not what inspired me to support Freicoin

I invested in Freicoin with the promise that i could use these to get donation matching to encourage to support further projects. 

i understand that you want to close down the foundation. but simply increasing the mining reward and therefore inflate the coins it not what was promised.

if you want to bring the coins into circulation do that now and not in a constant drain through mining.

i don't see how higher mining rewards will benefit the coin, more coins means simply less price per coin.

if Freicoin stays like it is now with just demurrage to miners i'm out.

 

At best i would see if the coins would be distributed as negative exchange fees. this will bring liquidity which is most important for a currency.

 

 

as @Rik8119 said option 2 is not fair to investors.

Option 3 some months after the matching is done.

 

UPDATE:

I see no use in having just more coins for mining. Just more coins does not mean more security, because increased supply will most likely reduce the price so that security wise it stays the same.

 

I propose to bring the remaining foundation coins after matching is done in circulation as block reward and combine it with a softfork that makes sure that some part of the block reward is used for Freicoin related projects.  The softfork is enough if enforced by the main Freicoin economic nodes, so that it is easy to change later.

For example, create time locked transactions that spent (100% as fee) of the foundation coins over a three year period with unlocking one transaction every 10 minutes.

 

Then add a softfort:

the main economic Freicoin nodes enforce that a certain part of the block reward is send to a specific address if less then 100.000 coins are on the address.

if we don't empty the address than at max 100.000 coins will hang on it. 

In the future we could implement a smarter distribution mechanism like outlined in other posts.

 

 

at this point i would not recommend to add Freicoin to any other exchange.

if we dont have enough volume we will loose again the Exchange.

Coinmarketcap also dosnt display the Freicoin trading volume right...

I would concentrate on first updating the Clients and bringing projects like trading rewards, universal divident new clients etc to run.

On 6/23/2017 at 2:47 PM, Skaro said:

they are neglecting to mention its volume stall.

i guess, that drop is just because of the Chinese government forcing the exchanges to be honest with their trading volume.

Coinmarketcap says, that there is 1 Billion Bitcoin trading currently which is a lot!

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts

for Solidar, i guess in the beginning its mainly advertisement and a clear vision to get it started.

Also you should think about giving some incentive to hold some coins. Like interest up to double the universal dividend. Same incentive is also missing in grantcoin.

Also of course a exchange is needed and an experience of price increase can help lot.

Freicoin can function if the 5% demurrage is used to encourage circulation. like outlined in the freipay proposal.

Then you have an incentive to use Freicoin.

currently many of the crypto tokens seem overrated. Many coins had a tenfold the last months. many coins are just junk. tons of ipos got tons of millions.

daily millions are burned for mining fees. bitcoins growth is artificially limited with the blocksize. federal reserve is increasing interest on dollar. summer hole for investments (june to october)... People need money for holidays.... coinbase collapsing because of too many users.... bitcoin miner vs developer vs industry vs users....

crazy world....

its fully unclear what is happening.... crazy times....

 

 

 

 

what i still see lacking, is a basic incentive to hold some Grantcoin, if i would be them i would require to have a certain amount of grantcoin to get the full universal dividend. or to volunteer x lets say 10 hours each month to comon good projects.

Wow, we have a Manna (Grantcoin) Community - Forum!

So lets write the first post here!

As you know i like very much the idea of a universal dividend and advocated for it even before we started Freicoin. Therefore i happen to support also Manna (Grandcoin) one of the first universal dividend community.

How does it function? 

¨Each year, we (the Manna Foundation) plan to add 3.5% to the Manna already in circulation. This will be given as Basic Income grants to everyone in the world who chooses to participate, growing the money supply in a way that provides equal access to all.¨

 

• You will get a bonus of 100% extra Manna(Grantcoin) the first year for each person who signs up with your code. (Example: You persuade 10 people to sign up, and all of them use your code when they get verified. Instead of getting X amount of Manna (Grantcoin) Basic Income your first year in the program, you will get 11 times X.)
• They will get a bonus of 50% extra Manna (Grantcoin) their first year in the program, just for remembering to use your referral code. We will also give them a code of their own, to give to people that they invite to sign up. (This is not multi-level marketing. You only get a bonus for signups one level down from yourself.)¨

If you want you can use this referral code to sign up and post here that you signed up using this code:

g3n6nnp28b

We can then use the coins to fund some projects!

I think it's also good to learn from them in case we want to make you own Freicoin based giveaway! 

See you hand most important have fun!

MArtin

UPDATE:

I forgot the most important, the signup link:

http://www.grantcoin.org/get-grantcoin/basic-income/

25 minutes ago, Skaro said:

The freicoinfoundation page has had some  updates.

http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/trade/candidate

 

and I'm working on an analytics page to summarize Foundation spending and advanced explorer queries and stats. Coming mid July.

great!

Wow Freiexchange is mentioned three times

@fedde is/ was working also on a Webwallet to distribute Freicoins directly to verified people. 

Hello Freicoiners,

here is a now a more detailed early draft of how a decentralised budgeting / coin issuing could look like. This proposal is designed that way, that it can be used as second layer on the current Freicoin chain, similar to a soft fork. This draft does not have the Freicoin community consensus yet, and is therefore considered to be treated as my suggestion only.

This proposal is based on the Freinode proposal. Therefore i please you to read this proposal first:

Layer 2 Part 2 – coin issuing to projects:

Decentralized Freinodes based coin issuing

Introducing projects

 

- layer two has a list of all frei projects

 

- projects are voted on similar to voting on Freinodes (10 extra votes for projects)

 

A project can have:

- a time limit

- a total payout limit

- a max payout limit per week (or other time period)

- a minimum payout amount

- optional: project can have sub projects, which themselves can have further sub projects

 

Introducing coin issuing to projects

- each stake transaction can assign up to 2% (In total 20%) of the coins to distribute to a project
 

Introducing project reputation:

- each stake transaction can vote for two projects

- each stake transaction can flag (negative vote) one project

- a positive vote undoes all negative votes from the same Freinode to the same project

- a negative vote undoes all positive votes from the same Freinode to the same project

- the reputation of a project is positive votes – negative votes counted for the last year

- A projects with a negative reputation cannot receive payouts

- A projects with a reputation less then 10 cannot receive payouts

Hello Freicoiners,

here is a now a more detailed early draft of how a Freinode / proof of stake based layer two could look like. This proposal is designed that way, that it can be used as second layer on the current Freicoin chain, similar to a soft fork. This draft does not have the Freicoin community consensus yet, and is therefore considered to be treated as my suggestion only.

 

If you dont agree with poof of stake (POS), i still please you to read this proposal. After that i would like if you could add your arguments pro / con here. Just to mention, this proposal uses POS only in layer two. The base layer would be still pure proof of work (POW). The here outlined POS algorithm uses a combination with POW, therefore multi chain signing of POS is not possible. The current draft is very much based on the dash masternode concept and therefore is proven to function in a one billion dollar market. I tried to simplify the masternode concept to as few parameters as possible to keep more complex decision making to layer three. Therefore you can find here nothing how to proof if a Freinode is doing his work well, thats layer three. Here you can only find how to get rid of the node if you think that he doest do his work properly.

This part is mainly about how to secure the blockchain with proof of stake based Freinodes on top of the proof of work based layer one and how to allow near instant transactions. The draft is also the base platform where the Freicoin 2.0 budgeting system could stand on, see next post. 

 

If you missed the first part where i outlined layer one i recommend to read first the initial post here: 

But have in mind, the first layer could also simply be the current Freicoin layer with all its cons and pros.

 

Layer 2 Part 1 - Freinodes:

- enforced on layer similar to a softfork. See dash masternodes

 

 

Introducing Freinodes

 

- layer two has a list of all Freinodes

 

- the Freinodes list is sorted according to the received ¨votes¨

 

- one coin equals one vote

 

- each coin owner can delegate his voting power to up to 10 freinodes

 

- after one year the delegation must be renewed

 

 

Introducing irreversible ¨instant¨ transactions

 

- a transaction is treated as irreversible if 80% of the Freinodes agree that it is included in the current block candidate

 

Decentralized Freinodes based proof of stake

Introducing Freinode voting:

- in each block, through using the proof of work hash, 10 Freinodes are chosen from the top 1000 nodes from the Freinode list.

 

Introducing Stake Transaction:

- each chosen Freinode can create a so called ¨stake¨ transaction

- each stake transaction must reference to one block and can only be included in the next block after this referenced block

- a mined block that has no referenced stake transaction has a difficulty of 20% of the original difficulty

- for each stake transaction that references the block the difficulty of the block is increased by 8% (at max 100%)
 

Introducing new coin distribution

- the block reward is:  transaction fees plus the demurraged coins

- each stake transaction claim use 8% of the block reward. Therefore in total max 80% for all 10 stake transactions.

- all not claimed block-reward can be claimed in the next block through stake transactions

 

Introducing Freinode reputation:

- each stake transaction can vote for two Freinodes (at max 1 for each Freinode)

- each stake transaction can flag (negative vote) one Freinode (at max 1 for each Freinode)

- a positive vote undoes all negative votes to the same Freinode

- a negative vote undoes all positive votes to the same Freinode

- the reputation of a Freinode is positive votes – negative votes counted for the last year

- A Freinode with a negative reputation cannot receive payouts and is not counted in the Freinode list / can therefore not take part in the staking

2 hours ago, jtimon said:

contribute in any way to an altcoin based on P

I dont understand what you and maaku don't like at POS?

Even this proposal is not a full POS proposal, it uses pos in a second layer. The fall back is still pure POW.

So on the end we have still the same POW security, that is based on the economic value of the block reward given to the POW miners (sadly very low currently in Freicoin)

Also the POS is not pure POS, it is freinode based and it is drawn by POW. Therefore it does not allow to sign for two different chains at the same time.

I'm open for arguments, but simply saying POS is bad i don't agree.

Even still we dont know how a distributed coin issuing could be done without a POS or proof of human part.

Not to mention the current miner centralisation.

If you want take part in a serious discussion pro / con about POS, please add your arguments here, so that i can add them:

 

The inflation in the outlined proposal is only internally, externally one Freicoin would be still one Freicoin

The difference is purely technical, how the demurrage is calculated.

Currently its very difficult to calculate the demurrage the right way, we even need a special math lib for that to get it right, which adds extra complexity and makes a upgrade very time consuming.

Not to mention that we need to adapt tons of code because different types of numbers needed to be used with the current demurrage implementation.

Also it brings lot of complexity to sending transactions and calculating the true balance. 

The only con arguments i see are, that currently the fee demurrage is implemented already (but very complex) and in the long run we would need to use either more bigger numbers, or reduce some zeros in the internal display of the base currency (externally one Freicoin would be still one Freicoin)

 

 

Im open also for arguments for a different block time. Currently i see the main argument for 10 minutes in miner centralisation, which in my design outlined above would not be relevant, because it has a pos component and uses a budgeting system / Freiming  to reward decentralised mining. 

Also a two way proof of work as outlined above  would reduces this problem drastically.

Can you please specify your arguments, otherwise i don't get the point.

 

I see your point that i should respect Freicoin and maybe make an Altcoin, but this in the end is the decision of the community, therefore neither in total mine not yours.

And yes, i will not proceed with this if not at least 80% of the left people go along. Currently i count only fedde, bick, rick, sarc you and me and maybe marc if he becomes reachable again and kieranf. All others seem to be gone at least for now. in this case i will try to implement parts of it, where 80% do go along or i will create an altcoin if it feels right. 

 

All outlined above is also not necessarily meant to be implemented at once, it is more a vision in which direction we could go. And as mentioned it is a very early draft.

Nearly all parts are designed independently of each other.

Layer 2 and 3 can also be implemented without even changing the current layer one if needed. There must be just an economic majority who is in favor of layer two or three and that is currently only Feddes exchange and some people that trade there.

 

I would also prefer if you read the full post first before arguing against it. I thought very long about each part of it, and there are good reasons why i drafted it like this.

I really would prefer and open constructive discussions of the parts, but simply saying pos is bad or calling it inflation without looking at my arguments i don't agree with.

I also dont know if you tried in the last years to truly use Freicoin, i can only say i tried it as good as i could, but was confronted with tons of obstacles. 

In the outlined proposal i tried as good as i could to bring my experience out of that in to get rid of these obstacles, so that we can finally use it.

 

I know, that you and fedde want currently more to focus on updating the Freicoin client. Yes it would be great to have a new version, but after looking into it and trying to compile it, i wonder if it is really worth the effort to bring the currently very difficult demurrage implementation to run with the new Bitcoin version.

Maybe its lot more easy to rebase it newly with a much easier demurrage calculation and better POW adaption on the current Bitcoin client?

I'm all in for a experience and fact based discussion, but i'm not ready to deny my work without good arguments. 

Early Draft Freicoin 2.0 lesson learned

 

From people for people!

 

Hi Freicoiners,

here is an early draft how Freicoin could look like if we would redesign it from the beginning. This draft does not have the Freicoin community consensus yet, and is therefore considered to be treated as my suggestion only. The proposal is structured that way, that it can be implemented step by step whichever part gets a consensus from the Freicoin community. 

Freicoin 2.0 is structured into three layers. Layer one would be similar to Bitcoin / Freicoin like it is now and is proof of work based. The second layer would be proof of stake based. The second layer allows decentralized budgeting. It could be implemented as Freinodes similar to dash maternodes as outlined more in detail here:

To proof of stake: Please try to be opjective and first read this proposal open hearted. The following proposal uses proof of stake only in layer two, and even there only in combination with proof of work selection to make multi chain signing impossible. Therefore please read the full proposal (see above) first and take then part in a constructive discussion about proof of stake as outlined here.

 

The third layer is focused on the user experience and user verification. The third layer could look like steemit or duniter or dash evolution. Duniter is mainly a blockchain that uses web of trust to solve the double account problem and gives out an universal dividend to all participants.

Based on steemit it would have delegated proof of stake, voting for projects, decentralized exchange, account recovery, different right levels, even a stable currency would be easy to setup once we bring it to run.

The three layers could be developed independently of each other, as long as the connections are clear defined. Layer two would be enforced on layer one similar to a softfork. Same with layer three on layer two.

In case something goes wrong in layer three (proof of human) the fall back would be layer two, proof of stake. Same if something goes wrong in layer two with proof of stake the fall back would be layer one proof of work.

This would therefore allow to have similar security and simplicity like Bitcoin in layer one without compromising the more advanced features in layer two or three.

 

Here the first early draft which is focused for now on layer one:

? := equals there may be other possible good suggestions

 

Three Layer architecture:

Layer 1: Blockchain - Two way Proof of work (POW) - Mining based

- basic economic security of the chain

- coin distribution to miners (target 20%?) 

Layer 2: Part 1 - Freinodes - Proof of Stake based (POS)

- rewarding Freinode infrastructure

- laying a second layer of security through Freinodes / POS based

- Near Instant Transaction confirmation

Layer 2 - Part 2 - Freinodes based project funding:

Layer 3: User? / (Proof of human)  decision making / User Verification / Universal Dividend / Freipay rewards / Liquidity rewards

 

Layer 1: Blockchain (POW – proof of work)

- base currency called FreicoinB? (B like base) with 5% inflation per year

- demurrage is client side only with 5% demurrage per year and max 100 Million coins

still one Freicoin would equal one Freicoin see (FAQ)

- Blocktime 1? Minute (see FAQ)

- two? (multi?) proof of work architecture (see FAQ)

- simple difficulty algorithm? (see FAQ)

- 1. Bitcoin merge mine

- 2?. Ethereum? merge mine

 

Layer 1 FAQ:

Why use two currencies?

First of all in truth its still only one currency. One Freicoin would still be one Freicoin, only the implementation would change. There are mainly two ways to implement demurrage. One is to handle demurrage similar to transaction fees that are simple destroyed. The second one is: Take a simple base currency that is inflated and calculate the demurrage client site. For example:

First year 100 FreicoinB equas to 100 Freicoin 

Second year 100 FreicoinB equals to 95,23... Freicoin 

Or in short : 1 Freicoin  equals 100 Billion / All FreicoinB in existence

To implement demurrage the second way, we only would have to adapt the display client site. All further calculations would be done similar to Bitcoin and could be done in the base currency.

An alternative would be to handle demurrage as transaction fee similar to how it is done now. In this case we should look into how to make the calculation of the demurrage more simple without needing that many changes to the Bitcoin code base. 

 

Why use a two way proof of work architecture?

The main reason why to use a two way architecture is to not be dependent on one mining hardware provider. In case if needed one mining algorithm can be replaced more easily. Another reason is to allow more people to have access to new coins. One alg could for example be an alg that is easy to use with general purpose computers and therefore allow a wide access to new coins. The other alg could be easy for asics, so that special asics are created that have an interest in the health of the coin.

 

Isn't a double spend more easy in a two way proof of work architecture?

In the end transactions are secured through the economic value given as reward o the miners. A two way proof of work architecture doesn't change that. Proof of work in layer 1 is used to make sure that is is economically expensive to undo transactions. A layer  2 can make sure that transactions can be treated as good as irreversible once confirmed in layer two.

Further by default blocks that are mined before the target blocktime is reached can be required to have a higher difficulty or be rejected by the network (see below)

 

How can a simple difficulty algorithm look like?

First of all it is good to clarify the two design goals a difficulty algorithm should fulfill. First it must make sure, that the difficulty adapts if the mining power increases or decreases. Second it must make sure that in the long run the blocks created per time period is ¨fixed¨.

The first goal could be reached through this:

- the difficulty is increased / decreased each block by up to 10% if the last 10 blocks have been in average faster / slower then target block time

 

The second goal could be reached through this:

- if 10 blocks more / less then the expected blocks are created the target block time is set to 0.8 / 1.2 the target blocktime.

 

A third optional goal could be to make fast block creation more difficult:

- a node only propagates a block if the difficulty is higher then: target difficulty * target block time / time since last block. At minimum a block must have still at least the target difficulty. With this a block that is double too fast would need double the difficulty to be propagated in the network. Four times to fast would need four times the difficulty. 

This would also reduce the problem of mining  centralization and therefore give an opportunity to reduce the block-time, because with the above alg miners would have in average  more time to receive the new block. On top of that through making the required difficulty time based this would allow a much more stable blocktime even if using the same mining alg like other coins. In short No more incentives for drastic hash increase or decrease.

 

For example, normally the difficulty does not change relative to the last blocktime. Therefore the difficulty is either that low that the coin is the most profitable to mine and therefore attracts the majority of the mining power or that high that the coin is not the most profitable coin to mine. This leads normally to sudden and drastic hash increase or decrease. A drastic decrease in hashpower is even more fatal, because this normally slows down the difficulty adoption. Economically no miner would have an economic incentive to mine such a coin to bring down the difficulty, which makes the coin dependent on good willing miners that make an economic lost.

In case the above alg is used if the last blocktime is too low and therefore the difficulty too high, miners will mine simple another coin (or stop mining). With time if the last blocktime becomes higher, the difficulty will decrease and therefore the coin becomes lucrative to mine until the next block is found.    

Layer 2 - Part 1 - Proof of Stake:

A early draft could look like this:

In short:

- the second layer is enforced on the first layer similar to a soft fork. The fallback is therefore proof of work in layer one

 

- through delegated proof of stake top 1000 Freinodes are chosen

 

-  in each block the proof of work hash is used to draw 10 Freinodes from the top 1000 Freinodes which received the most votes

 

- each Freinode may create a so called stake transaction that references a block and can only be included in the next block

 

- each Block gets a base weight of 20% plus 4% for each added stake transaction (in total therefore max 60%)

 

- the longest chain concept is replaced with the chain that has the most total weight

 

- each stake transaction can claim 2% of the block reward (fees plus demurrage plus some part of not yet distributed coins)

Layer 2 - Part 2 - Freinodes based project funding

A early draft could look like this:

In short:

- the project funding is enforced on the first layer similar to a soft fork. 

- each stake transaction can assign 2% of the block reward (fees plus demurrage plus some part of not yet distributed coins) to projects

Layer 3 - From people for people - Proof of Human:

Work in progress...

The third layer could look like steemit or duniter or dash evolution.

- the third layer is enforced on the second / first layer similar to a soft fork

The fallback is therefore proof of work in layer one and proof of stake in layer two

 

 

Account recovery and security

- people can restore wallet with 12 word passphrase

- people can assign account recoveries

FreiGroups

- people can form groups to exchange and govern themself

Naming / Aliases:

- people can register aliases

Universal Dividend

- people can get verified and receive a universal dividend

- people can vote on sentries / caretakers

Price Stable currency

- people can use Freicredits designed as price stable currency

Liquid Democracy

- people can delegate their vote to other people, freinodes, projects or groups

Freinodes

- people can delegate their coins as security to Freinodes (layer two)

- people can vote on Freinodes

Freiprojects

- people can create projects

- people can vote which projects to support

- people can delegate their coins as security to projects (layer two)

Freiexchange

- people can use decentralized exchanges and get some liquidity reward from the budgeting system (layer two)

Freimining

- people can get economically incentivised to take part in decentralized mining

Freipay

- people can buy with verified Freipay participants and get some Freicoins back from the budgeting system (layer two) 

Freiland

- people can buy land and include it in a Freieconomy and get some Freicoins back from the budgeting system (layer two) 

Freigreening

- peopel can take part in greening the deserts which in former time where forests and get some Freicoins back from the budgeting system

lol, if im using Ehtereum.... not that much yet.... i guess i have to try to get out my sunken Ethereum classic from the broken DAO.... quite some money worth now.... 

 

@Bicknellski maybe this would be something for your children:

4. We’re developing a Grantcoin savings account program for children in developing countries. Our team is drafting a proposal to present to two charities, one in Africa and one in Latin America, which have already expressed interest. We hope to expand the program to more charities in the future.