Bicknellski

Hi everybody,
i made a small app where you can check the prices of the different coins.
Sourcecode is not online yet. But i will post as soon as possible.
Rik
 
FXchecker[1].apk

Stellar would be an example of such a protocol. However see this paper from IBM's research division about the failings of such proposals:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01873

yes, i agree, that in an system with price inflation people have to argue for higher salaries to get more or less the same while a stable currency or a demurrage based currency prices may stay more stable, therefore employees don't need to argue to get inflation increase of their salary.
To the other part, lower wages must not lead necessarily to less productivity, or higher prices, most likely its the other way round, lower wages would lead to more employment, because less cost and lower prices, because less money too spend (not counting the money inflation itself).
What an UBI would change is that more people would have access to money, therefore the money would not that much accumulate in certain regions / people, therefore salaries are expected to be more even in regions / city / land and globally (also it would even out between poor and rich communities).
I think in the end the UBI should not be financed completely from the demurrage or money inflation, instead it should be financed from the rent on property (stocks) as described above (see former post).
To the UBI itself, i dont know if it is good to give all the money out for nothing. I think we must make experiments what is the best way to give out the money. For sure people must have a guaranteed access to money, so that they can take part in the economy if they wish so.
Different possibilities to distribute the money could be for example:
1. Direct without any conditions
2. Require to do certain work
3. Give as bonus for buying products (see freipay project)
4. give as bonus for certain investments / credits (see freiinvest project).
 
Because its the easiest way i think its good to start with 1. and then slowly add / test other methods.
 
To demurrage or inflation:
Currently i think the best money system would be with neither demurrage or price inflation. Just take a stable currency as described in the post above.
In the beginning if the economy of this currency grows there is to be expected lot of money which must be generated to guarantee price stability.
Part of this money could be used to buy stocks / coins / property and then rent it out (for example on the blockchain itself).
This rent is then used to guarantee that all people have a fair access to money.
In case of price inflation, the rent could be used to buy back the currency and therefore stabilize the prices.
 
 

Thank you very much for your reply,
i also see the effects you describe but i'm really not sure if adding a basicincome (or QE4people) -like many suggest- can do the trick alone. Because if it does i really could save my time and stop working on Solidar and Freicoin,  because Manna and Circles are much more popular.
My observation regarding inflation is that most  people don't want to argue with their employer about a higher wage only on the basis of inflation (because especially in our fiat money system its hard to measure), so demurrage (stable prices) makes it much much harder for the employer to push wages down without reason and make the discussion fairer. Most people want to work and with a basicincome (+inflation) people will work for less. Im afraid that this inner need could and will be abused and will lead in the end to lower wages and less productivity and therefore higher prices and lower buying power of the ubi. People will than demand a higher ubi what will only cause more inflation and make payed work even less attractive. In my eyes its a downward spiral leading to the opposite what ubi is naturally for. Giving a basic income to those that our money system abuse.
I like really to make things as simple as possible but i still believe that ubi alone is not enough to make it work.
Do you understand my point about inflation?
Rik

Hi Rik,
to inflation vs demurrage and the above article.
What is currently happening / not happening  in the system like wage increases cannot be compared to a system which distributes the newly generated money directly to the people.
I'm not so much talking about basic income, im talking about fair access to money.
Currently the newly generated fiat money accumulates with few people  because it is generated by giving out loans and by directly buying stocks and properties.
But simply giving out new loans does not increase the need for new products, because the money goes only to few, therefore does not increase product prices or product demand (except stocks and property prices), therefore does not increase salaries.
It even reduces the product prices, because currently there is low interest on loans, therefore the cost of a product which comes from interest costs (currently around about 1/3), reduces, therefore we don't see much rising prices even with the money supply drastically increased.
This is the current system, another system would be if the newly generated money goes directly to the people.
In this case the purchasing power of the people will increase, therefore the prices will increase or more products will be asked for, therefore companies will be required to hire more people (except the automation is too much influencing already) therefore the wages will increase.
This would be totally another system compared to the system described above.
Yes in this system there will be an inflation in the long run, but if the interest is near the inflation plus a certain risk for not getting the credit back, then this system could function for eternity, because money would not accumulate that much (not considering other tendencies that lead to money accumulation like property / stock income, thats another story that must be solved in a fair system).
The question is now, what is the benefit from a demurrage, vs inflation, vs fully price stable currency.
 
Demurrage would in the long run keep the product prices more stable, while an inflation based currency will increase the name value of the products slowly according to the inflation.
Therefore demurrage based money would be a slightly better unit of account, but this accounting effect could also be easily calculated in if you do accounting.
Using paper money in an demurrage based system could be tricky.
Another difference of demurrage money would be that salaries would not be by default inflated, therefore employees would not need to bargain to increase their wages each year to have the same after inflation.
Inflation based money would once in a while have to get rid of some zeros, while demurrage based money could have the need to add some zeros if the production grows.
 
I think the most fair system would be if the inflation is equal to the production / economy growth, in this case there would not be an price inflation at all.
Newly generated money should go directly to the people so that they have fair access to money and directly as zero interest loans to small / medium enterprises, and to buy properties (see below).
In case of an price increase the money from the loan payback could be used to reduce the money supply and therefore guarantee a stable money / unit of account with aimed 0% inflation or deflation.
 
In this system, money itself would not accumulate through interest. Of course accumulation of money / property through stocks and properties must be still fixed to have a fair system.
This could be implemented gradually through using newly generated money for buying up property and stocks. This property and stocks can then be rented out for X% with X guaranteeing that all people have fair access to property.
 
All other taxes, except for environmental / guiding taxes like on chemicals, drugs, advertisements, harming products could be abolished step by step.
The system itself would be self balancing, so no need for inheritance taxes or income taxes.
Thats it, hope not too long

As you can see here: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/turns-out-the-great-inflation-scare-of-2018-didnt-happen-wages-still-not-rising-rapidly-2018-03-09
Inflation does not lead to higher wages. That means the prices rises but wages don't. The incentive to work will be even lower than in our fiat money system. Manna and circles will both create <1% super rich (early adopters) and a very small middle class, that will work for the rich. And the rest will live on basicincome. What will only be sufficient enough to provide the basic needs. The "dirty" and hard work would be done by those that have the intrinsic wish to help but this additional work won't be paid.
To me such a system is not fair because those that have no inner need to clean and to repair things will profit from those that have. A society would be created like a big cooperation, where you can be as good as you like but receive no higher wage. Its ok but it still prevent innovation from happening because there is no reward to those that innovate.
So Manna and Circles are easy to understand but without demurrage they are not sustainable long term imho.
What does anybody else think? Rik.

Yes, they have a nice concept. But as i mentioned i am not convinced that it is adorable, since they use inflationary money with some of the same problems we have in our modern money system.
Inflation still justify interest what will still concentrate money. Though it is a little harder to concentrate money (the decades until the total collapse (like in the 1920s and nowadays) could increase. The problem will stay the same. Inflation will create ever growing prices and makes it impossible to track if a product is costing more than the UBI inflation or not. That alone makes it easy to manipulate and concentrate money within the hands of the few.
But hey people understand inflation, they do not understand demurrage, so maybe we need another generation of war and suffering to get from inflation to demurrage.

By the way Bick, we have allready a Manna forum since long time here, the name is just outdated
(Manna was formerly Grantcoin)
 

i guess manna will reach this year already 100.000  people if they manage to scale up to the demand.
Only thing i worry about is, that they have a similar problem like  we have with with the Freicoin Foundation.
Currently their Foundation holds a big part of the available manna (true market cap must be so 100 million already).
Also the current manna wallets are on a centralized server. both could be hacked....
Of course with one exchange currently its easy to make the hack undone, but would destroy some trust...
 
 

Fedde said he wants to add Manna...
I like manna very very much. Currently They are the leading basic income currency.
I hope that Fedde will add Manna soon, i think Manna is very promising, except we finally manage to start our basic income project
Manna currently has only one exchange, if we add Manna now we could make freiexchange to the most liquid manna exchange!
 
All the good,
Martin
P.s.: Im in contact with some of them, and they seem to be very nice and welcoming!
Disclaimer, im for sure invested currently in Manna
 

Zexy site! 
 
Donate: BTC 16BghZgtoh9hmifLskv1Jtec46abQZ1Kp , FRC 1KQ4z7mRxLPhPAzcZTnUPCPHLC67B8h2Hr
Dr. Reza Erfani, P Eng.
Dr. Erfani is a professional engineer with 11 years experience in design and management of heavy civil engineering works as well as a specialist in applied statistics. Primarily from his PhD work, Dr. Erfani has  expertise in advanced probabilistic modelling: cluster analysis, multivariate statistics, Monte-Carlo simulations, reliability analysis, and extreme value estimation.
Dr. Erfani founded Stats-Tec to continue his passion of studying the world through modelling and analytics. He has also contributed to the crypto-currency community and won the Freicoin Alliance Bounty for implementing the demurrage fee in a Freicoin block explorer. With an analytical mind, a strong background in computers and mathematics, and years of professional engineering experience, Dr. Erfani can deliver innovative technical projects on time and on budget.
"The beauty of statistics is in elucidating underlying phenomena"
Stats-Tec provides services in:
blockchain analysis engineering climatolog

https://www.mannabase.com/?ref=gmrvvtenkr

I got some manna did you get some manna. Is Manna on our exchange?

So I got a website on crypto currencies that has 3 pages dedicated to Freicoin. Or maybe its a Freicoin website with a couple extra other  pages. It's my first foray in website programming, so its could use some improvements over time. it features:
1) News feed
2) Cryto-currency interactive statistics
3) Multicoin coin trade optimizer
4) a Freicoin mining calculator
5) grouping of Freicoin public keys
6) Summary of Freicoin Foundation transactions
Currently, the Freicoin database is not updated automatically, but with MYSQL dumps. The website is here:
http://statstec.x10host.com/
 

Thanks for the update and info. 
 

Thanks for the update and info. 
 

Freirepublic could be really what makes Freicoin different to other coins.
 
I would do it for example like this:
Implement Freirepublic in a second layer like for example dash does it.
 
Second layer could look like this:
A part of the block reward + fees lets say 80% is distributed according to the votes. (can be phased in starting by 20%)
To vote the demurraged coins are used.
You can vote pro and con for a project.
Each month the X top voted projects receive coins relative to the amount of votes (pro-con) they received.
 
Enforcement could look like this:
Demurraged coins can be used to vote pro or con a sentry (masternode).
Top X (pro-con) voted sentries (masternodes). each month are added for at least one year.
Each sentry (masternode). has votes according to pro votes - negative votes.
Max number of votes per sentry (masternode) can be limited.
Sentry (masternode) get Y% of the mining reward (can be phased in starting by 20%)
Consensus is reached over a valid block either like in dash or like in stellar.
 
If layer two fails, fallback is layer one like in dash.
 
 
UPDATE:
one thing i would add: Votes count 100% after one week time period 1/7 after one day. After one year votes are not valid anymore (phased out in one month).
 
UPDATE:
I was thinking about the enforcement. In away we could start without having something like frei / masternodes at start. At worst it behaves like all goes to the miners if miners block votes therefore at worst we are there where we are now. In case of vote blocking through miners. A single tool which tracks vote censoring should be enough to reject blocks from miners that dont include known voting transactions. This could be added as softfork later if needed. 

A little bit of a technical update I want to share. As part of the refactoring and rebasing effort I've worked out a way to eliminate Freicoin's extra dependencies while at the same time achieving a 10x performance boost for the mathematical calculations we use these libraries for. I'm quite excited about this, although for reasons that might be obscure for those without a technical background. If you don't understand this post, that's okay. The TL;DR is that we can make Freicoin faster while further aligning the code base with bitcoin to minimize the maintenance burden.
Freicoin uses the GNU MP and MPFR multi-precision arithmetic libraries for performing cross-platform portable demurrage calculations within consensus code. Calculating demurrage factors involves taking the per-block demurrage rate r = (2-20 - 1)/(2-20) and raising it to the nth power, where n is the relative depth of the output (next block height - output's refheight). The fastest way to do this on workstation or server-class hardware is to use the CPU's floating point unit to perform the exponentiation. Unfortunately there is just absolutely no way that this can be done safely and consistently inside of consensus code. CPU manufacturers do not guarantee the bit-for-bit accuracy of operations compared with other CPUs of the same target architecture, much less with reference values or cross-platform targets. There was at one time a dream of decimal floating point (IEEE 754-2008) which would have had reproducibility as a requirement, but alas that never took off.
The solution we adopted in 2012 was to use GNU MP (a multi-precision exact big integer and rational arithmetic library) and GNU MPFR (a multi-precision software floating-point library with rigidly defined semantics) to implement precise, cross-platform software floating-point demurrage accounting. This has the advantage of getting the job done, but there are some downsides:
Performance. Freicoin suffers from this use of external multi-precision arithmetic libraries. Although optimized for speed GNU MP simply cannot approach the raw performance of directly adding two 64-bit numbers in hardware, and the multi-precision heap allocations add overhead and indirect storage causing latency. MPFR on the other hand is designed for precise, cross-platform behavior in simulations, not frequent high performance calculations. It is also overkill given that we use the library for one single calculation only, for which a generic library like MPFR would not provide support for specialized optimizations. Reliability. Both GNU MP and MPFR use dynamic (heap allocated) memory for their bignum representations. That means that there potentially is allocation or reallocation happening every single time a call is made to GNU MP or MPFR arithmetic functions, and potentially an out of memory exception is generated. Originally this was every single time any kind of arithmetic was done on freicoin values. With the recent input-truncation soft-fork it is already possible to reduce this to just demurrage calculations. However that still means that there is the possibility for abnormal or transient exceptions to occur in code that in bitcoin consists of normal arithmetic operations. This code was not audited for failure modes as a result of this different behavior, and there is added risk of local node instability as a result. Maintenance. Bitcoin has special scripts to make reproducible builds of all of its dependencies. These scripts are custom developed and maintained by a sizable Bitcoin Core development team, and these build scripts are very frequently updated as bitcoin matures. These scripts would have to be modified to include reproducible builds of GNU MP and MPFR, and those changes maintained and re-integrated with each new release of bitcoin. This is a bit of a sore point for me because I originally fell off the wagon of providing regular maintenance updates to Freicoin on release 0.9, in which the build system changed quite drastically due to the switch to autotools. Legal. GNU MP and GNU MPFR are both distributed under the terms of the LGPL. Because official Freicoin binary distributions are statically linked, that meant that they are also GPL programs. Now I'm a strong advocate of libre software, user rights, and the GPL, so on the face of it this was not too concerning to me back in 2012. However the Freicoin software repository says like bitcoin that it is MIT/X11 software licensed, and these sort of viral software licensing traps are difficult to see, so I can see how someone might run into GPL license violations as a result, without intent of doing so. There is a permissively licensed fork / re-implementation of GNU MP that we could use, but not alternative for MPFR. Given that the rebase to bitcoin master (0.16 as of now) would require re-doing the pieces which use GNU MP and MPFR anyway, it seemed like an opportune time to look at replacing these dependencies with something faster, safer, in-house, and permissively licensed. Thanks to input truncation, all the regular accounting can be reverted back to 64-bit integer arithmetic instead of multi-precision rational numbers. The trickier part is the demurrage calculation, which still needs to do an internal real-number precise exponentiation.
To remove the dependency on GNU MPFR I wrote an integer-math-only exponentiation of the freicoin demurrage rate using pre-calculated look-up tables, and through exhaustive testing proved it to be bit-for-bit identical in its results compared with the GNU MPFR version. I then went through and applied as many approximations and reductions of internal precision as I could without generating incorrect results, to get the absolute fastest implementation. Here's some raw numbers:
The first column is the algorithm name. The "mpfr_mul" is the algorithm currently used in freicoin, and "mpfr_div" and "mpfr_small" are variations upon it. The "small" variation reduces internal precision to as low as can be done without errors in exhaustive testing, which would be a cheap one-line change to the existing method. The "apu" algorithm is the new integer-math-only implementation using pre-generated lookup tables for the exponentiation. The "f32"/"f64"/"f80" algorithms use single-precision (float), double precision, and extended precision (long double) floating-point math on the CPU, as a point of comparison for timing. The "div" variations calculate the inverse of the demurrage rate, which is potentially a faster exponentiation to perform albeit at the price of a slow division at the end. There is an "apu_div" method, but it is unfinished so I did not include numbers for it.
The second column gives the average run time per evaluation of the demurrage calculation on my laptop. Neither the "mpfr" nor "apu" methods have constant time performance -- the runtime speed should have some logarithmic dependency on the number of set bits in the integer representation of the relative depth (the exponent in the demurrage calculation)--a point I'll get back to in a minute. For the "mpfr" family this effect is small, but for the "apu" family it is more pronounced and the worst case performance should be about twice what is reported here. But conversely the expected execution time depends on the average age of UTXOs, which would be way less than the exhaustive testing reported here. The hardware accelerated floating point operations should be constant-time on most CPUs. The numbers above were calculated based on an exhaustive test, for which the "average" age of a UTXO is about 1,000 years. Here are more realistic numbers with an average age of 1 year:
Note that mpfr_small and apu_small are 22% and 30% faster, respectfully. (Also note that apu_small is about as fast as performing the exponentiation on actual floating point hardware! That was a nice surprise.)
The final column gives a triplet of numbers reporting (1) the number of errors found in exhaustive testing in which the demurrage was greater; (2) the number of test cases which matched the reference implementation; and (3) the number of errors found in which the demurrage was less than the reference implementation (mpfr_mul). Note the intrinsic errors involved with using hardware floating point, even for "f64" and "f80" which unlike "f32" should have had sufficient internal precision to perform this calculation exactly. Hardware floating-point is not to be trusted.
The clear winning approach is "apu_small", and I will be replacing the GNU GMPR demurrage calculation code with this technique, using an implementation that has been exhaustively tested to be 1:1 identical in results with the multi-precision implementation that is presently in the Freicoin consensus code.
What I did not expect going into this is that this implementation is not just as good as MPFR's general approach, but is in fact nearly 20x more efficient in common use cases! And I am blown away that it is nearly as fast as computing demurrage directly in hardware floating point.
While the difference is unlikely to have profound effects outside of a few special cases (e.g. calling 'getbalance" on a very large wallet), it will nevertheless reduce latency of various transaction processing and UI code, thereby delivering a better user experience. Far more critically it will improve the safety and security of the Freicoin reference implementation while significantly reducing the work that goes into keeping Freicoin up to date with upstream bitcoin. That's exciting to me at least
You can expect a new version of freicoind with these improvements integrated to be out soon, as that is what I am currently working on.

I think this is something that can be an Freicoin Alliance bounty if required.

Freicoin-Qt going forward Anyone... anyone... BUHLER BUHLER?


So is anyone looking at taking on the Frecoin-Qt? 

Looking into the Freicoin-Qt means that the deamon has to be finished first. I dont see this happen in the near or mid future. But when it comes to the point that it needs to be tested/bugfixed i sure can throw some time at it..

Freicoin-Qt going forward Anyone... anyone... BUHLER BUHLER?


So is anyone looking at taking on the Frecoin-Qt? 

Hi @Mark Friedenbach,
thank you a lot for the update! Is there any git-repository you use to keep track of the changes? I really like to contribute to the development, although my time is also limited and its possibly way above my skills ;-)
 
@fedde does it make sense to implement the importprivkey method into the bot? In that way you can use your own keys without installing a wallet..

Merry Christmas everyone!
It's been a while since I posted here. My apologies. I've been quite busy getting a proposal for MAST implemented and reviewed, which is exciting in its own right [0,1]. I now have a bit more free time to devote to freicoin in the coming months.
Back in September we agreed to wind down the foundation and to burn the left over funds after finishing the remaining charitable matches. I pulled out the donation matching code and started updating it to work with the current versions of its dependencies. However there was one snag that caught me by surprise: the script expects the foundation keys to be loaded into the wallet of the node it uses, meaning that testing of the script requires a hot wallet of the foundation funds. I'd forgotten that watch-wallet support wasn't added to bitcoind until 0.10. So for safety reasons, as leaking this key material would be devastating, I'm working on the freicoind rebase right now instead.
Rebasing to higher versions of the upstream bitcoind is made significantly easier in theory by the prior per-input value truncation soft-fork we deployed in the last release. In practice however we need to do a big chunk of work to refactor the freicoin patches to make use the simpler approach this allows, and then we will see the gains. I'm working on that right now, switching the code for the latest official release to use input truncation and taking advantage of the patch size reduction that allows before rebasing to more recent versions of bitcoind. I am also getting the upstream gitian build process working for freicoin rather than the custom solution I had been using in prior releases. I'll make a new post when these refactored and rebased releases are ready for testing and review.
Also I have one more announcement: there will not be official support (from me) of Freicoin-Qt going forward, and it will not be included in the official release binaries. I'm sorry, but maintenance of GUI wallet takes a lot of time and I have limited resources to devote. Hopefully someone else is able to take up this burden and we can re-add support for it. But even if no one does, the reference wallet remains accessible from the command line and RPC, which is what services need, and consumer wallets are maintained by the Freicoin Alliance (Android and Electrum I believe?). One of the reasons for this is that I want to devote time to support hardware wallets, using the Ledger Nano S platform, so there is that benefit That project is waiting until the rebase to current bitcoin core is complete however.
Onwards and upwards!
[0] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014932.html "Merkle branch verification & tail-call semantics for generalized MAST"
[1] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/015028.html "An explanation and justification of the tail-call and MBV approach to MAST"

Would it be possible that Mark and Timon's bios could be updated on Freico.in to include founding BlockStream, developing for Bitcoin Core , SegWit, MAST, and Lightning ... (those small resume building summer jobs)

maybe because its far tooo big? Better use some wallet that dont need to download the full chain.