Arcurus

Congratulation to 150!

By the way is there any way to see the current coin supply? And is there anyway to see the signed up members?

to Solidar economics:

Why not make it that way:

Give 2 coins basic income per person that registers

Give up to another 8 coins. 1 coin for each x (100) coins the person has.

This way you have a incentive to hold some Solidar, if you hold too much still the demurrage eats it up, therefore you could lend them out to others so that they get their full universal dividend.

...or just make a Freicoin classic fork and use the bird logo combined with the roman leaves: 

personally i like the bird....

Agree with @FreedomCare. First logo is too simple, second logo is far too complicated, too many tings mixed up...

I would do it similar to the Freicoin Alliance logo 

How we could use demurrage fees as transaction fees and what benefits this would bring:

Theoretically it would be possible to use the demurrage fee as transaction fee.

This could look like this:

In an given block a part* of the block-reward is assigned to transactions as additional paid fee*** according to how much demurrage they pay (similar to coin age the transaction destroys). 

This could be implemented as soft fork.

This would help also to reduce that transactions get stuck because of not paying enough fees.

As benefit this would also increase temporally the block reward and therefore attract more mining power** if more transactions need to be confirmed, and lower the reward if less transactions need to be confirmed. This would therefore increase the blocktime on days where lot of transactions need to be confirmed and reduce on days when less transactions need to be confirmed. As side effect this would increased the capacity in case of need and reduce in case of not need, and therefore balance out the transaction fees (more easy to calculate).  

* the more Freicoin is used the higher this percentage could be

* in practice the exact in this way assigned block reward should be averaged over a longer time period like 2 weeks

* it would be good to use the log(demurrage) instead of demurrage for this distribution, this would benefit users that transact regularly.

** only if in competition for mining power with other coins

***  it could be good practice to distribute the fees over the next X lets say 10 blocks, so that an individual miner has not much benefit in creating more transactions to get more fees then other miners.

@Skaro currently in Freicoin the demurrage fee is not used as transaction fee. 

Therefore yes users would have to pay more transaction fees if in the future Freicoin is widely used and the block limit stays similar to Bitcoin Core.

Theoretically it would be possible to use the demurrage fee as transaction fee.

This could look like this:

In an given block a part* of the block-reward is assigned to transactions as additional paid fee*** according to how much demurrage they pay (similar to coin age the transaction destroys). 

This could be implemented as soft fork.

This could also help to reduce that transactions get stuck because of not paying enough fees

As benefit this would also increase temporally the block reward and therefore attract more mining power** if more transactions need to be confirmed, and lower the reward if less transactions need to be confirmed. This would therefore increase the blocktime on days where lot of transactions need to be confirmed and reduce on days when less transactions need to be confirmed. As side effect this would increased the capacity in case of need and reduce in case of not need, and therefore balance out the transaction fees (more easy to calculate).  

* the more Freicoin is used the higher this percentage could be

* in practice the exact in this way assigned block reward should be averaged over a longer time period like 2 weeks

* it would be good to use the log(demurrage) instead of demurrage for this distribution, this would benefit users that transact regularly.

** only if in competition for mining power with other coins

***  it could be good practice to distribute the fees over the next X lets say 10 blocks, so that an individual miner has not much benefit in creating more transactions to get more fees then other miners.

More to that we can discuss here:

On 8/21/2017 at 0:14 PM, Skaro said:

Well, that sounds fantastic. What can we do to help you out?

+1 what can we do to help you? Where to find more information about this project?

@Skaro if i find some time i will sell some dash to you on Freiexchange

to @Mark Friedenbach so with normal transactions freirepublic could function?

can you outline more in detail why not also with confidential transactions? if the balances are still known it should function or?

for every coin hold you give per time period x one republicoin to vote. the votes could still be mixed using confidential transactions.

a federation like in dash could enforce in layer two that miners do not block the vote.

if the federation fails still the fallback is layer one mining.

the federation could be purely implemented as softfork and enforce that a certain amount of the block reward is used according to the vote of the federation.

6 hours ago, Mark Friedenbach said:

I will say that I am solely and exclusively interested in decentralized solutions only, in both the near and long term.

i would be very happy, if you can take the time to outline why freirepublic (i dont call it a coin for clarity) cannot function? Up to now i described two different solutions. One i posted here in the forum, the second one is simple like dash does it. it would be great to have your technical feedback to that. but for sure in another topic.

to foundation.

im fine with destroying the funds.

removing the inflaton with a soft fork would be great.

so option 4 and 1.

@jtimon just for clarification i was not talking about developers, i was talking about foundation members. participating voluntarily as developer is a different responsibility than being in charge of 80% of the funds distribution. 

My suggested softfork would simply reduce the foundation risk to 100 K coins at a time. and yes it will not solve the decentralisation problem.

This leads back to the original question. would there be some members that are willing to do the job of distribution until a decentralized alg is implemented and would the community agree to that?

back to your original question, my preference is in this order:

option 2X) add as block reward and add a softfork as discribed above - it would be in away like the current foundation except, that the risk is limited to 100K Freicoins and it can be removed / replaced easily with another soft fork. also i suggest to have a separation between developers and key holders as maaku wanted it to have in the beginning.

option 3) do promised 100% matching then give equally to investors after a known time period

option 4) do promised 100% matching then do destroy the coins and reduce the supply, but reduce to a rounded supply like 21 Million

option 1) do promised 100% matching then destroy the coins

option 2) do promised 100% matching then give out as mining reward --> i don't like at all  

23 hours ago, jtimon said:

I did look into pos, and I think it's flawed. But you are free to keep looking into it.

i wish you and maaku would take part in a more detailed discussion about pos. I dont think that it's flawed, to be clear im talking about a POS POW combination not pure POS.

to be more clear, im not talking about a peer coin like POS. im talking about a dash like layer two POS POW combination.

yes i also think the peer coin POS implementation is flawed, but up to now i dont see a big flaw that cannot be solved in the layer two dash like POS.

please take part in the discussion here:

what is the alternative? proof of work as it is now means that each year 5% from that > 80% is just burned for electricity, the rest goes mostly to  one who have a monopoly on mining equipment...

on top of that up to now we have no good way to implement republicoin / freirepublic / any alternative coin distribution with pure pow 

>Isn't that what the foundation is currently supposed to do?

yes the foundation was supposed to distribute the coins as agreed. Sadly it didnt. That does not meant that the idea was bad it just meant that the execution of the idea was bad.

also with my proposal the amount of risk would be limited to 100.000 Freicoin and not 80 Million Freicoins. Having 80 Million hanging in limbo is like having a deathtricker in you hand.

Also my proposal can be implemented as a softfork which can be easy replaced later.

> the community also didn't developed any other distribution program.

i see here also a clear difference of perception. in software development normally you design what you want to have, then you review the design, then you implement it, because changes in the implementation are very costly compared to changes in the design.

Therefore just saying yes you can implement something, maybe we will use it maybe not, is not very encouraging especially most are not developers that can implement it at all and are dependent on the core devs, or at least on the one who is holding the key to the foundation funds. 

23 hours ago, jtimon said:

> doesn't sound that great to me. its basically Bitcoin with demurrage for eternity to miners what @jtimon suggested.

Yes, that was basically freicoin's design from the beginning. The foundation was a later mistake.

here is the root of the basic misunderstanding between the Freicoin Core Developers and the Freicoin community.

@jtimon and maaku wants basically Bitcoin with demurrage plus Freimarkets

many of the community wanted Bitcoin with demurrage plus republicoin i call it freirepublic, because it was at least initially not meant to be a coin.

With freirepublic we could support many projects to make Silvio Gesells vision of a Freieconomy true step by step.

Demurrage was only one part of it and never to stand alone (see wiki).

So the question is, do we want Freicoin to be Bitcoin with demurrage plus Freimarkets.

Or do we want Freicoin to use as tool to implement a Freieconomy as Silvio Gesell suggested?

For me freimarkets can go together with Freirepublic / Freieconomy, they are just two different parts of the greater vision.

Therefore i would suggest that maaku and @jitmon concentrate on fremarkets and updated clients, while other parts of the community concentrate on implementing freirepublic.

@all please take part in answering this discussion so that we get a clear picture!

4 hours ago, Rik8119 said:

we could implement a HF to decrease the mining reward all we need to do is change this code in main.cpp:

can you write in words what the code does? Reduce mining reward, or reserve some part of the block reward for alternative distribution?

the more i think about it the idea of having two different development teams working on Freicoin sounds really great to me.

Layer is 1 / proof of work could be mainly developed by mark and jtmon if they are interested

Layer 2 / proof of stake / masternodes - see dash / distributed budgeting system can be implemented by other developers independent of each other

Layer two must only be enforced by the main economic nodes, therefore can change more easily than layer 1

Layer two would also allow instant and private transactions like in dash.

Just now, Adilado said:

I agree that proof of stake would be best, i love proof of stake so i hope dev can recondider

i dont think that neither @jtimon or marc will even look into proof of stake. 

If you want proof of stake (combined with proof of work) i guess you have to do it like segwitt2X. secure the economic majority, then implement proof of stake like for example done in dash as layer two. then make a softfork and add it. 

@jtimon by the way if you want to know how a distributed foundation can be implemented in a soft fork, just look how dash does it. yes the technology is out there since years and functioning very well!

5 hours ago, Skaro said:

Well, staying off topic for just one more comment, ;-) @jtimon, that sounds GRRR-EAT!!

doesn't sound that great to me. its basically Bitcoin with demurrage for eternity to miners what @jtimon suggested.

i strongly oppose not to look into proof of stake security

to the soft fork, that could be easy to implement, just add one address where some part of the block reward goes if less than 100K coins are on that and give control of the address to someone who does the job of distributing them. later we can decentralize it.

simply destroy the coins seems up to now the best solution for the foundation.

simply out of curiosity, where did the community fail in distributing the coins?

- to the foundation, as said, as it looks now it will be completely dissolved, so no demurrage or coins will go or hold by the foundation.

- it looks like the coins from the foundation will come in circulation sooner or later, at least that is what up to now most of the community voted for, so that Freicoin will have 100 Million coins total in circulation as planned.

- my suggestion is to add a softfork, that somepart of the demurrage could be used for other projects, for example development, or negative trading fees on Freiexchange.

If done right users will hold some Freicoins and other assets that give stable value to Freicoin.

later Freiexchange can be decentralized.

Just now, Adilado said:

I might have got it wrong, but.

If i have 100 coins, I dont want it to be 95 after one year but 105 (If staking).
Otherwise I am telling you in the view of a cryptocurrency investor that no one will be interested.

what do you prefer having 105 coins worth 100 dollar after one year or having 95 coins worth 200 dollar?

many investors / traders look only on the graph, there having a limited coin supply looks better...

technical wise, yes inflation may be easier to implement, but I guess that decision is done...

demurrage and proof of stake have nothing to do with each other.

you mean move from demurrage to inflation and from POW to POS....

i guess the foundation will be totally removed... but still we have the Freicoin Alliance with some donated coins...

the Freicoin logo is the Freicoin bird as shown in Freicoin qt.

@fedde redesigned the logo, but the client and website is not updated.

with pos, i for my part see the future of crypto in at least partial POS how this can be implemented i outlined here in the forum. but i cannot make a decision on behalf of the Freicoin community. 

removing demurrage in Freicoin is like increasing the coin supply in Bitcoin...

the whole point of Freicoin is in keeping the money in circulation.

Yes this could also be done through for example 5% inflation, but this would lead to other problems....

think it that way, a coin that has a stable coin supply will at least trading wiese much better than a coin with 5% inflation...

for investors i would only recommend to invest if they understand what Freicoin is about.... then they may be ready to pay the demurrage as the current investors do....

as it looks now the foundation coins will be most likely redistributed through mining. but im not a foundation member, so better ask @jtimon

if the people currently running the foundation will stay with Freicoin only they can answer, so also here better ask @jtimon

If you want to invest in Freicoin i would wait if i where you until its clear what the decision of the foundation will be.

except you want to take the bet that the foundation decision will increase the price...

36 minutes ago, Adilado said:

Done right we can hit 50 mil marketcap, thats just crazy profit.

if you want crazy profit, better invest in Filecoin ipo.

That said, yes Freicoin price can increase, but that's not the main point, the point is creating an currency based on the economic theory of Silvio Gesell / a money that is in circulation.

What you mean with 5% POS?

As said the foundation will soon be gone as it looks now...

@soda508 have you transferred something to that address yet? If so when?

@Adilado currently we need mainly help for testing Freicoin 0.9 and the new version of the Freiexchange

with the 3 Million, not sure if I can help there much, i would try to place one by one 500 K orders on Freiexchange at some days even more then 800K are traded, so its not that unrealistic to buy 3 Million over one or two months. 

Of course you may also find bigger investors that are ready to sell...